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Feedback from a Gamer---->Too Grindy plus medical and legal ramifications on the horizon



Posted: //
Dec. 28, 2017, 4:13 p.m.


Updated //
Dec. 28, 2017, 4:20 p.m.

Dear Devs,

I'm a gamer and I'd like to make the Dev's at large aware of some trends, both in gaming and in the medical community. Right now, the World Health Organization (WHO) is classifying grindy type gaming as a medical diagnosis which could have legal ramifications further on down the road, depending on how this plays out in society.

Here's the lowdown:

"It’s called gaming disorder, and it’s characterized by “a pattern of persistent or recurrent gaming behavior,” or more simply, an addiction to gaming." ---->Full article found here: https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/who-gaming-disorder/

Now, let's look at the social/medical aspect in light of the attitude in the gaming community at large.

EA caught huge amounts of poodu for making their game (we all know which one) too grindy and the "gambling" aspect that was brought up about it didn't help it's perception with lawmakers either. Some lawmakers were thinking of trying to get it classified as gambling.

In light of the WHO medical diagnosis in the general social mileu, I think it would be in the best interest of Greybox to provide a significantly less grindy gaming environment. Otherwise, there could be significant social and or legal ramifications. All it takes is one angry gamer and a lawyer and our favorite game here is gone.

I'd like that NOT to happen.

We need to NOT have this game force players to play hour upon hours ad nauseum to get that tier ship they want. This is a reciepe for disaster, especially w a good lawyer. The argument could play out like this: "you've make your game too much like gambling. You've harmed my client by forcing him into a behavior that was unhealthy and damaging. In addition to creating an unsafe game, you've forced players into a pattern of behavior that is intentionally addictive....here's a lawsuit." Intent being key in legal matters. What is the INTENT?

Anyway, I'd really like this NOT to happen to this awesome game. So, here are some recommendations to prevent this:

  1. Module prices need to be cut by at least half. At least...
  2. Gaming rewards need to be increased to cater to a less "recurrent gaming behavior" as the WHO put it in their own words.
  3. The random drops from Twitch need to go and be replaced by standard drops. Reduce the chance of being accused of being like a casino...
  4. Have a meeting with your legal team to discuss what's going on in the medical community and what if any, impact your legal professionals think this will have in regards to day to day operation.
  5. In the meantime, take some reasonable precautions now, by making it less grindy.

Thanks for your time, Devs.

-Greywolf


description "The Tiger and the Lion May be Stronger, but The Wolf doesn't perform in The Circus."


Posted: //
Dec. 28, 2017, 5:33 p.m.



There is nothing in this game that you can even gamble on, so, No. As for the grind comment. Go play a Korean MMO, or one of the many MMo's on Stream, then you'll know what Grind is.

The Module prices are on the high side yes, but if you buy eliet they are quite easy to get. After all elite is where the Dev's make there steady income. Don't confuse a free to play game to a free game. You are not supposed to get everything with in 2-3 months of playing. Ive been playing since May, and I don't play a lot. I am missing 2 T4's and I have 2 T5's. Ive bought the total of 2 weeks of Elite in this time.

I've also thrown in a few quid along the way, got the orion Hero ship beacue I like it, and did a bit of XP conversion and credits because I wanted a few things now.

The Dev's need to make money to keep the lights on. 75%-90% of a free to plays games income, comes from 10% of the player base. Bottom line is, in any free to play game, if you want to be playing at the top end, you need to be in that top 10% of players spending money, or spend to progress quickly so when you get to the top progression is not too bad.

Or you can just do what more people do and just truck along enjoying the game. to be fair, T5 matches only happen in the evenings EU times, the rest of the day it's Veteran or Recruit matches. T5 are just trophie ships for the most part.


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Posted: //
Dec. 28, 2017, 5:49 p.m.



Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-203748) said:

There is nothing in this game that you can even gamble on, so, No. As for the grind comment. Go play a Korean MMO, or one of the many MMo's on Stream, then you'll know what Grind is.

The Module prices are on the high side yes, but if you buy eliet they are quite easy to get. After all elite is where the Dev's make there steady income. Don't confuse a free to play game to a free game. You are not supposed to get everything with in 2-3 months of playing. Ive been playing since May, and I don't play a lot. I am missing 2 T4's and I have 2 T5's. Ive bought the total of 2 weeks of Elite in this time.

I've also thrown in a few quid along the way, got the orion Hero ship beacue I like it, and did a bit of XP conversion and credits because I wanted a few things now.

The Dev's need to make money to keep the lights on. 75%-90% of a free to plays games income, comes from 10% of the player base. Bottom line is, in any free to play game, if you want to be playing at the top end, you need to be in that top 10% of players spending money, or spend to progress quickly so when you get to the top progression is not too bad.

Or you can just do what more people do and just truck along enjoying the game. to be fair, T5 matches only happen in the evenings EU times, the rest of the day it's Veteran or Recruit matches. T5 are just trophie ships for the most part.

I think you missed the entire point of my thread.


description "The Tiger and the Lion May be Stronger, but The Wolf doesn't perform in The Circus."


Posted: //
Dec. 28, 2017, 5:54 p.m.


Updated //
Dec. 28, 2017, 5:56 p.m.

No I didn't. I think you don't understand what WHO is talking about, or what true grind is.

Also Lawers will generally take anything as long as you can pay there fees.


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Posted: //
Dec. 28, 2017, 6:06 p.m.


Updated //
Dec. 28, 2017, 6:10 p.m.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-203753) said:

No I didn't. I think you don't understand what WHO is talking about, or what true grind is.

Also Lawers will generally take anything as long as you can pay there fees.

You're wrong on multiple points here. My profession is in the medical field. My undergrad degree was in psychology. I work in the medical profession.

This is going to herald a new era in the gaming community and it needs to be addressed. You promoting a status quo point of view is proving my point. It's yesterdays viewpoint that you have...

YOU don't really understand, Belial. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you don't.


description "The Tiger and the Lion May be Stronger, but The Wolf doesn't perform in The Circus."


Posted: //
Dec. 28, 2017, 6:52 p.m.


Updated //
Dec. 28, 2017, 6:53 p.m.

There are games that are much more grind heavy than this

/edit Spelling


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Posted: //
Dec. 28, 2017, 9:01 p.m.



This is getting out of hand... I will admit that the grind here's not as bad as some MMOs out there. The problem is: it doesn't affect how a grind exists in this game. IMO, the devs arguably made it worse by trying to redistribute it among the modules, and some people have already pointed it out with some fancy charts and math; they made an effort, but it ultimately made the grind worse.

I will say this though: IGN themselves noted the slightgrindiness in their review of the game...


Posted: //
Dec. 29, 2017, 1:55 a.m.


Updated //
Dec. 29, 2017, 4:55 a.m.

GreyWolf#5751 posted (#post-203754) said:

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-203753) said:

No I didn't. I think you don't understand what WHO is talking about, or what true grind is.

Also Lawers will generally take anything as long as you can pay there fees.

You're wrong on multiple points here. My profession is in the medical field. My undergrad degree was in psychology. I work in the medical profession.

This is going to herald a new era in the gaming community and it needs to be addressed. You promoting a status quo point of view is proving my point. It's yesterdays viewpoint that you have...

YOU don't really understand, Belial. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you don't.

Lol. Sorry but no, just no. I'm not promoting anything, you drawing parralels with gambling and legal action are attempted scaremongering.

Maybe you should go post this on the Blizzard forums, people have died/lost there jobs playing World of Warcraft.

If you want to be a SJW, and fight for phantoms, start there.


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Posted: //
Dec. 29, 2017, 2:44 a.m.



Try to unlock a Level X tank in World of Tanks. THAT'S grinding


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Posted: //
Dec. 29, 2017, 2:55 a.m.



I'd like to see the current progression system burn in a dumpster fire, but not for this reason.

Dreadnought is not legally responsible for some guy playing too much video games.

And if it were somehow responsible, what's the line to draw. 18k xp per module is legal but 19k is illegal?

Their mistake here is that the system sucks. It drives away players. It's bad business. I'm ready for them to get real about cosmetics and be legally responsible for taking advantage of my love of scifi. The WHO isn't protecting us nerds from awesome space art like the Orion. I can't resist that. It's like my wallet just opened itself.

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