HandSolo#4718 posted (#post-221659) said:
SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-221654) said:
HandSolo#4718 posted (#post-221633) said:
If so elite is already P2W.
First time I have ever heard the term "Pay to Progress". When I googled it, thinking I had missed a significant description of MMOs that might use this, all my google search returned was Pay to Win information.
While looking at pay to win information, I found these definitions:
"Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)." - Urban Dictionary
"When money provides an objectively better experience when playing, meaning that if the purchasable content creates a noticeable distinction between the haves and the have-nots.
“Better Experience” includes in game advantages, stronger in game gear or anything that makes the paying players stand above the free players. This is especially a major deal in games with competitions or PVP play." - Game-Wisdom
In my opinion giving those of us who subscribe even more benefits over those who do not really amounts to making this game more Pay to Win, specially considering it's directly related to reducing the grind. It could be that I have missed something and am wrong. I myself pay for a subscription, and I bought content even though this game is still in beta. I do this because I wanted the benefit myself, and to suppor the game. However, I still don't agree that those who pay should receive even more benefit in comparison to those who do not.
In regards to player retention, I think giving those of us who have a subscription even more advantage would only serve to upset people who do not pay for a subscription, and perhaps also cause them to leave.
Pay to Progress sounds like paying to reduce grind, which really amounts to paying to win in my opinion. "Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)." - Urban Dictionary
If my opinion is wrong, I would like to know. If you can, please, in the spirit of learning, will you explain how paying to progress is different than paying to win?
A simplified explanation:
Pay to Win: you need to pay real money in order to obtain items that, at higher levels, are required to win. These items are not available in game without purchasing.
So an example of this would be items we can only purchase with money, like some packages with hero ships, that then XP can be farmed from?
And let's be honest, if we earned all available GP through achievements, we might be able to buy a hero ship, but would not be able to convert XP to free XP. So that does seem like exactly what you saying here.
Pay to Progress: all (non-cosmetic) items are are available, however it will take a long time to get them without paying to speed progression.
Pay to win also includes reducing grind by pay money for that benefit. Hero ships again are a good example of this, a player who has purchased hero ships, can stack their hanger with them,accumulate XP, and then pay to convert them to free XP.
In other words Dreadnought is Pay to progress because you can, as an example, access all T4 and T5 ships and modules, but it's going to take you a long time to get them because of the in-game costs. If Dreadnought was Pay to Win, you would not be able to access T4 and T5 ships and modules w/o paying Greybox real money.
Realistically, players who do not pay, cannot buy enough hereo ships or any hero ship, to help reduce grind, a lot of GP we earned is directly related to higher tier ships, so are not accessible for farming XP at lower tiers. They only benefit those who purchase them in regards to reducing grind.
Dreadnought doesn't have its core aspects of the game locked w/o paying, only cosmetic items. That means it's not a Pay to Win.
In my opinion, this game by your own definitions is both pay to win, and pay to progress. Further, it's my opinion that the term pay to progress is a sub definition to pay to win. Just because this term is used by greybox, does not negate it also being pay to win. For me, it's simply a way to promote the F2P concept without taking on the negative aspects of also being pay to win. It very well may be that some who quit, do so because they thought the game was F2P, but then realize that those of us who do pay, have a huge advantage over those who do not, and to obtain those very items to reduce grind, mean they must grind all the way to T5 ships, before making enough gp to buy those items that can reduce grind, which means they must complete the grind, before they make enough gp to reduce the grind they already completed. In reality, they do not have access to the same benefits of those who pay. You call it pay to progress, I understand, and that is your opinion. My opinion is that this is clearly pay to win.
There are many more examples I could state, but I am currently using my phone, and this site behaves glitchy for me. So if you would like other examples I can post them when I am back home.
We can agree to disagree, no big deal. I don't see it as a pay to win because I don't need to pay to access anything in regards to gameplay. Hero ships aren't required to progress, they make it faster. Further, players can go in with a T3 and beat T4s; you don't actually need the better ship and researched modules to win, it just makes it harder. I haven't spent a dime on the game and I can go into matches and come out with the best score. If it was pay to win, I wouldn't be able to do that. I'm sure it's the case with many others too.