FORUMS


Dynamic Team Sizes & AI 'done right.' (for faster Queue times)



Posted: //
May 31, 2018, 8:17 p.m.


Updated //
June 2, 2018, 3 a.m.

Not getting into a Legendary (or otherwise) game after 6+ minutes of waiting suks, right?

[adenium]

Squads vs Squads (and) Solo Queue vs Solo Queue.

It would be a good way to keep things straight when populations are low, favoring Squads vs Squads with some 1 or 2 Solo "Pick Ups" if need be where to help reach the closest "Team Size" up in size.

(so if 2 "3s" per team of 6v6, or 2 "4s" with +1 each for a 5v5 Or a pair of 2s + 4s again for 6v6)

So yeah, "3v3" Squad or Solo or 'Mixed' 2s +1, as needed to pick up players for games at any hour and any population.

For having Squad Sizes of (2, 3, 4 , 5 & 8), and secific "Team Modes" for games sizes 5 and 8.

  • 3v3, 2s +1, 3v3.

and

  • 5v5, 2s + 3s, 4s+1, or 5v5.

then

  • 6v6, (x3) 2s, (x2) 3s, 2s+4s, 5s +1.

and

  • 8v8, (x4) 2s, (x2) 4s, (x2) 3s+ 2s, 5s + 3s, and 8v8.

  • (More sizes in furture? in due time...... )

Further,

MM is what Decides Based On Avalible Populations and 'How Much of What' is In the Queue, such we have faster games. (and where if can, for the bots to be replaced by players in Solo if agreed in Settings for both sides equally).

Players simply tick the box for how long THEY are willing to wait for games, and if are ok with being 'put in late.'

(ie) Player vs Player is Preffered as stated (Repeatedly) For All Cases in PvP modes.

  • "Less than 3 min," for allowing bots as much as needed for their Solo Queue games... if low Population. Will always get a game by 3min even if vs Bots + Bots.

  • "3 to 5 min," for AI bots as ok to have 1 to 2 of per team Equally to max out the closets Largest Team Sizes can make based on Population Sizes.

  • "5 min +," for no bots on either team, (aside from if someone leaves out.)

in this way, We can ALWAYS find quick games no matter how low the Population at a point is, and so Populations don't kill the game. *and in turn we don't end up with dead populations as PvP favors PLayers vs PLayers always, with the choice to the Player if ok facing bots or not.

It is 100% their call, and not in turn an effect against other players, as "3min or less" for 1min MM only works if Solo OR Full Squad is agreed.

If there is population in game and in queue is high enough, the "+5 min" level of 'No Bots/AI' in PvP games is the normal for all players the same.

So no.

FACT: this Cuts times for MM when There Are No People Enought to Even Feking Get Games for a Mode/Fleet.

It does not [Fact] "CAUSE" a lack of Population as you ONLY See AI If YOU Make It So with even on no Population a player can "queue forever" if They choose.

For more Rational persons, we are not required to be held back from playing due simply to Them; and if ironcially as such "They" get to have their "No Bots" games in turn, thanks to there BEING population in the MM Queue enough to suport PvP.

(and if there isn't, then we can queue up as we must to have games no matter what.)

[/end quote]"

It also is not fun to have AI units in DDs or Corvettes simply feeding the other team, yet also 'priced' the same on points as Players.

(such one is not fighting against said AI in a "Custom/Legacy" coop game mode, lolz)

Thoughts on Bots:

  • Limit Bots/AI to 2 Per Team and ONLY 2 per teams such BOTH TEAMS have the same number.

  • Limit Bots/AI to playing a Supporting Role especially when on Teams with Players.

  • Limite what AI ships can use to AV Dreadnoughts and Oberon Tac Cruisers or AV DDs, per team needs. (such that you never don't have the 2 or capped max "3" TCs that are kinda sorta needed vs others)

  • Limit the Points awarded for killing AI ships as vs Player Ships, with their names MORE CLEARLY marked.

  • Are ONLY there in specific Game Modes, or if a player chooses to queue ["less than 3min"] or if ["3 to 5 min"] for games when there is no populaion in game.


"Glory to the Truth, amen." (>_< '7


Posted: //
May 31, 2018, 8:23 p.m.



Sorry also if this looks like a bit of a mess.... lol,

I try to make it clear what and where my points are that are being made to make reading faster/easier for people to include myself based on ways I took notes in the day or how such using Outlines.

If you have suggestions for Fast, Effective MM that would do well or have questions on what I mean by something feel free to ask.

Just please be civil about things. Thanks, /)'glhf


"Glory to the Truth, amen." (>_< '7


Posted: //
May 31, 2018, 9:22 p.m.



DreadgeNought#5815 posted (#post-221699) said:

Not getting into a Legendary (or otherwise) game after 6+ minutes of waiting suksa baddly, right?

It also is not fun to have AI units in DDs or Corvettes simply feeding the other team, yet also 'priced' the same on points as Players.

(such one is not fighting against said AI in a "Custom/Legacy" coop game mode, lolz)

Thoughts on Bots:

  • Limit Bots/AI to 2 Per Team and ONLY 2 per teams such BOTH TEAMS have the same number.

Putting any limits on how many AI pilots are injected into any given match, will increase que times for matches where there are not a lot of people online to play. Que times are already a major complaint, this would only increase them.

  • Limit Bots/AI to playing a Supporting Role especially when on Teams with Players.

Limiting AI bots to only playing a supportive role, would only increase peoples frustration in regards to support ships, like TAC ships. TAC ships are already an issue. If all the injected AI bots only used TAC ships it would only make the problem worse, and cause people to become angry when playing against a team with too many tac ships, and leave the game which affects the population of any given match tier by decreasing the number of online available pilots.

  • Limite what AI ships can use to AV Dreadnoughts and Oberon Tac Cruisers or AV DDs, per team needs. (such that you never don't have the 2 or capped max "3" TCs that are kinda sorta needed vs others)

Limiting AI bots only causes the match to be more unfair. I have seen matches where all the injected AI bots are on one team, while the other team has none. In the case of squads comprising part of a team, and only one of the teams in a match, this means the other team would be more likely to be stacked in nerfed AI bots, and if easier to kill, makes it even easier for the team with a squd, to win.

  • Limit the Points awarded for killing AI ships as vs Player Ships, with their names MORE CLEARLY marked.

Creating a situation where people do not want to kill AI, because they earn far less points would allow the AI bots to operate with impunity. While making them weaker, they still would be able to operate effectively because people would go after other players instead.

Dynamic Matchmaking:

If there is One and Only One thing that WarGaming "Did Right" for all the sins against gaming they commit within WoT and WoWS, showing what can have been a truly great game only to turn em into fascist messes of communist RNG.... (lolz),

It is the way the Match Making works or at its best would work to always find games in a fixed time amount.

  • Have Dynamic MM via Variable Team Sizes from a Set of Choices that "can be done" to match appropriate Map Fighting area sizes. Simple.

Before anything can be done to fix the issues of the matching system, we need a much larger player base. Creating a dynamic matching system where you have so many choices increases the likelyhood that fewer people would be available for any given match. It would also cause longer que times.

If there is not enough players for ALL PLAYERS to quickly (in under 3min) get into 8 v8 games with at least 6 Human Players per team and NO Bots on one // not also on the other Equally in Numbers, Then Don't Have Use Keep Waiting (more than one is willing).

  • have a settings where we select battle types to queue where can "peg" the fights we want, where we can tick box how long we are willing to wait in queue for games that are "all human and /or/ are Full Sized teams.

Dividing the player base, by allowing for more choices would create longer que times.

Instead, for the same 6 players needed for ONE team in a (6+2 v 6+2) "8 v 8" game, * You can instead have a (5 vs 5) game with 3 Players + 2 AI in DNs or Tacs.

(or again 5 players per team properly, eh. perhaps with Size 5 or Size 6 squads in due time if populated.)

Such That "Squad Games" are played By Squads vs Squads as can be done. (aye?)


Posted: //
June 1, 2018, 4:46 a.m.



Just put minimum of real players to 5 per team to start a match and remove bots from the game completely. Also, if there are latejoiners, they should always be pulled into the game when there are 2 available, so no team gets a number advantage.


Join the official Dreadnought Discord server for quick questions and tips via discord.gg/dreadnought !


Posted: //
June 1, 2018, 8:14 a.m.



I hate to say it but I dont think there is a right way to do it. Match marking is hard. It really is an impossible balance of speed and quality vs pool. I would like to see it add as many bots as needed to get a match going say after 5 mins in pool. As long as the number of real players is the same on both teams. Which will only make it stall on odd number pools.

Match size impacts squad size, ect also. It adds yet another layer of complexity to MMING. As for legendary ques, it is a pool vs progression issue I believe.


description

pegasuscommand.com


Posted: //
June 1, 2018, 9:33 a.m.



Kurt_Hustle#0982 posted (#post-221717) said:

Just put minimum of real players to 5 per team to start a match and remove bots from the game completely. Also, if there are latejoiners, they should always be pulled into the game when there are 2 available, so no team gets a number advantage.

This. The game was fine when it was 5v5, I'd rather have that than the bots. Or make it 6v6 without bots, which is the current minimum to start a match.


My Dreadnought tools and resources: Dreadnought Datamine | Snib's Dreadnought Steam Launcher | Hangar background noise remover


Posted: //
June 1, 2018, 9:37 a.m.



Snib#1627 posted (#post-221785) said:

Kurt_Hustle#0982 posted (#post-221717) said:

Just put minimum of real players to 5 per team to start a match and remove bots from the game completely. Also, if there are latejoiners, they should always be pulled into the game when there are 2 available, so no team gets a number advantage.

This. The game was fine when it was 5v5, I'd rather have that than the bots. Or make it 6v6 without bots, which is the current minimum to start a match.

I like this, I would rather play against real people than AI, or team with real people rather than AI.

Sometimes you have to go back, before you can go forward.


Posted: //
June 1, 2018, 9:57 a.m.



Good posts and good points.

Like said, "Player Choice" along with 'Game Modes,' that AI units might not always be 'needed,' And are NOT always of benifit where can be a feeding Corvette or DD unit.... XD

Biggest thing in turn to be to allow players to "Tick-Box" for in Settings or such for what kinds of modes are ok with up to a point, Such if to be ok with bots or not for a faster MM timer vs waiting for Full Teams.

*(such that MM always favors 'full teams' where it can).

Also, "Supporting Role" means that the AI units stay with the team rather than going out alone.

By being worth fewer points to kill and not feeding one by one to the other team, staying as a group / with the group AI would make less of an impact or issue past just being population. Ones again though not required if we can get enough population but one might need such we can always get games in Leg if we want them.

*again, it's a Feedback Loop; If it takes too long to get games fewer players queue up for games making getting games harder and harder to do. If you can always get games in under 3 to 5 minutes, there will be more Population for more fast games MM more often plus 'being there' when it becomes needed.


"Glory to the Truth, amen." (>_< '7


Posted: //
June 1, 2018, 10:03 a.m.



Not a fan of AI in any match, I like Snibs suggestion. Reduce the number of players in a match, no AI. The matching system as Snib has said, already waits for a specific number of real player before creating a match. So just reduce the number of players to the current min of real players vs AI, and no more AI.

This doesn't fix the unfair matches, but it would help in that AI wouldn't be messing things up.


Posted: //
June 1, 2018, 10:57 a.m.



HandSolo#4718 posted (#post-221788) said:

Not a fan of AI in any match, I like Snibs suggestion. Reduce the number of players in a match, no AI. The matching system as Snib has said, already waits for a specific number of real player before creating a match. So just reduce the number of players to the current min of real players vs AI, and no more AI.

This doesn't fix the unfair matches, but it would help in that AI wouldn't be messing things up.

The issue is when there are too many AI without an enforced balance of units per side, with the same score gave as players, with behavior and units that lead to them just being food.

As said again: Player Choice. (for those that DO want or who don't care about if are AI bots in games).

To allow for the choice to not be part of AI/Bots included games, if at a longer MM, with Bot Options for those that don't mind or care for when Populations are far too low. (just go into Settings and Tic the 'boxes' as they apply; just that simple... or such)

In either case, yeah. Bot/AI need to not have frontline determining power like how it feels + the unequal distribution of players starting with Rank, eh.

With dynamic Team Sizes to match Squad Sizes populations we can also do more the most to remove the need for bots where can help it. - such it is better to have some bots AI if someone gets dropped out of a game.

So speaking of, how big would be 'big enough' or if too big for games? Think that 12v12 could become a thing on larger "Onslaught" type Maps or if on more vast maps with more quadrants to them? How big is "Too Big?"


"Glory to the Truth, amen." (>_< '7

This forum is restricted, posts cannot be made.