Spurius Maximus#2411 posted (#post-223128) said:

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-223124) said: I see your not read what i said. in this game you'd have to set the timer differently to "lock" sopmeone out of matches. Sure a Troll could make other accounts, but then doing that would take time, so they are still not playing while they are doing that, and then they would have to go through the sheltered MM first then level back up if they want to greef anyone other than recruit players, so i guess realy, your point really has not validity to it.

I find it almost a rule of thumb that when someone proclaims in advance that they won the argument, no need to wait for any discussion, anyone disagreeing just didn't read their profound wisdom... it just means they really can't make much of an argument. Be it about gameplay, Jesus, or flat Earth, the same applies. They won, you a priori have no validity, because... wishful thinking :p

ANYWAY... Making another account and getting out of protected MM takes hardly any time at all, considering that once you've made it you have it for ever. The only way for that timing to be any deterrent would be if you had to make a whole new one every time. But 1 or 2 would get you through any lock-out from here to infinity, without any need to make any more and wait any more.

Losing about a day worth of matches outside recruit to get a veteran ship or two is also hardly a deterrent, since again you keep it for ever.

And it's not just theoretical wishful thinking., I have multiple accounts in several games (mostly to get around the limited ship/character/whatever slots in those games), and I've never had to redo the account creation and newbie area all over again from scratch just because I swicthed account. Once you've got the account and got past the newbia are or MM, that's it. Any deterrent value in having more than one account simply vanishes past that point.

Plus, you seem to be assuming that the kind of person who's leaving has their life revolving around playing the upper tiers. In fact, a lot of us actually like the lower tier gameplay more. At veteran and above everything you've learned before goes out the windos, and the game increasingly becomes a fest of one-shot, two-shot, annoying or just plain old BS abilities that make it not much fun for a lot of people who aren't into exploiting the unbalance of the month themselves. There's a reason why at least half the roster in Recruit games is level 50 players.

And for someone looking to troll, trolling newbies is just as good, if not better, so that REALLY didn't solve anything.

And the ones I've seen genuinely get annoyed and leave a game (you occasionally see it even on youtube), it was again invariably about the BS gameplay at higher levels. So I'm not sure a day or two of playing recruit again would exactly be a punishment.

But let's say they don't go and play a new account in recruit, and are actually that daft and unimaginative as to actually be absolutely unable to think of any way to play while a lock down is in effect. Let's even say they take it as some sign that they MUST stay in the game. Then what do you think happens? They're still in a match they don't enjoy. Forcing someone to keep trucking through some non-fun quarter of an hour doesn't magically make it fun. Then at best you get some people who uninstall the game (and yeah, surely we need even less players) and at worst people who then alt-tab and go watch a movie instead of just quitting the round. So now you can't even have the MM shove someone else in their place for the rest of the round.

Not every game is for everyone, and that is ok. I don't like the battle Royal games, CoD or battle field, they have done just fine with out me.

You dont like the higher game play, thats fine too.

You see level 50s in recruit, that's probably down to the game designed of rotating your fleets, play veteran, while BB is on cool down play recruit, veteran BB is off cool down play Vet, repeat. I know that's how I play, so I would guess other level 50s do too.

Well, that is your opinion, Belial, but I think the Devs actually want to make this game a game for as many people as possible. This game is made to make money for Grey Box, not to entertain you.

I already posted in here, but it seems like my post got lost somehow. Spurius brought up some of the points I mentioned, good post! I will try to lay down my opinion on this topic again, hopefully this time the post will stay.

If you want to make players do something in a certain way, you should reward doing things the correct way, instead of punishing the player for doing things the wrong way. Especially regarding actions, that players might not always be responsible for. For example, if your game crashes during an awesome round, that sucks pretty much. Imagine how much it would suck, if on relog you would be greeted with a leavers penalty, that would feel really nice, yes?

As Spurius said, leavers penalty will not deterr players from not participating from a match they don't want to participate in. As he suggested, many players could for example just afk and sit it out, would that actually enhance your gaming experience? Instead all you will have achieved is giving players with technical problems an even harder time.

Instead of penalizing leaving, how about rewarding not leaving? For example, finishing a game could provide one with a +5% XP bonus that stacks up to +25%, but gets lost when you leave a game before it ends. It's just an example, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Spurius already mentioned it, in this case, leavers penalty shouldn't even be something to discuss. Instead of asking "How can we stop players from leaving?" we should as ourselves "Why are players leaving?". You are trying to battle symptoms, instead of adressing the real issue. Ususally players don't install and start a game because they want to leave rounds, they want to have entertaining games. Don't talk about penalties, talk about improving match making and the tier system, so you don't have players in your game that leave a game despite obviously wanting to play.

Meathook#5951 posted (#post-223135) said:

Well, that is your opinion, Belial, but I think the Devs actually want to make this game a game for as many people as possible. This game is made to make money for Grey Box, not to entertain you.

I already posted in here, but it seems like my post got lost somehow. Spurius brought up some of the points I mentioned, good post! I will try to lay down my opinion on this topic again, hopefully this time the post will stay.

If you want to make players do something in a certain way, you should reward doing things the correct way, instead of punishing the player for doing things the wrong way. Especially regarding actions, that players might not always be responsible for. For example, if your game crashes during an awesome round, that sucks pretty much. Imagine how much it would suck, if on relog you would be greeted with a leavers penalty, that would feel really nice, yes?

It happens in others games I play, but granted I'm only locked out of PVP not the PVE.

As Spurius said, leavers penalty will not deterr players from not participating from a match they don't want to participate in. As he suggested, many players could for example just afk and sit it out, would that actually enhance your gaming experience? Instead all you will have achieved is giving players with technical problems an even harder time.

Add in a report system for people just AFKing.

Instead of penalizing leaving, how about rewarding not leaving? For example, finishing a game could provide one with a +5% XP bonus that stacks up to +25%, but gets lost when you leave a game before it ends. It's just an example, but I'm sure you get the idea.

The reward is already there for not leaving, as you get BB. But yeah always open to improvements.

Spurius already mentioned it, in this case, leavers penalty shouldn't even be something to discuss. Instead of asking "How can we stop players from leaving?" we should as ourselves "Why are players leaving?". You are trying to battle symptoms, instead of adressing the real issue. Ususally players don't install and start a game because they want to leave rounds, they want to have entertaining games. Don't talk about penalties, talk about improving match making and the tier system, so you don't have players in your game that leave a game despite obviously wanting to play.

From this thread alone and many others the reason people leave are mostly because the match dose not fit what they procive as fair/fun/entertaining. As I have already said these are abstract concepts, what you might find fair/fun/entertaining myself or anyone else may not.

There are many a game out there that people think are amazing, some of those games I don't enjoy. You may not enjoy some of them yourself. That's fine. We are not going to enjoy every game we buy/play for what ever reason.

Every game has a target audience, we as consumers are part of that audience or we are not.

I'm not saying everything is fine with the MM, I know it's not. But I don't think the game is here to entertain me alone, I'm also not saying anyone here thinks that. But by leaving a match, you are costing 7 other people time, and maybe there fun/,entertainment. Sadly though it seems that this is an relivant concern.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-223137) said:

Meathook#5951 posted (#post-223135) said:

Well, that is your opinion, Belial, but I think the Devs actually want to make this game a game for as many people as possible. This game is made to make money for Grey Box, not to entertain you.

I already posted in here, but it seems like my post got lost somehow. Spurius brought up some of the points I mentioned, good post! I will try to lay down my opinion on this topic again, hopefully this time the post will stay.

If you want to make players do something in a certain way, you should reward doing things the correct way, instead of punishing the player for doing things the wrong way. Especially regarding actions, that players might not always be responsible for. For example, if your game crashes during an awesome round, that sucks pretty much. Imagine how much it would suck, if on relog you would be greeted with a leavers penalty, that would feel really nice, yes?

It happens in others games I play, but granted I'm only locked out of PVP not the PVE.

As Spurius said, leavers penalty will not deterr players from not participating from a match they don't want to participate in. As he suggested, many players could for example just afk and sit it out, would that actually enhance your gaming experience? Instead all you will have achieved is giving players with technical problems an even harder time.

Add in a report system for people just AFKing.

Instead of penalizing leaving, how about rewarding not leaving? For example, finishing a game could provide one with a +5% XP bonus that stacks up to +25%, but gets lost when you leave a game before it ends. It's just an example, but I'm sure you get the idea.

The reward is already there for not leaving, as you get BB. But yeah always open to improvements.

Spurius already mentioned it, in this case, leavers penalty shouldn't even be something to discuss. Instead of asking "How can we stop players from leaving?" we should as ourselves "Why are players leaving?". You are trying to battle symptoms, instead of adressing the real issue. Ususally players don't install and start a game because they want to leave rounds, they want to have entertaining games. Don't talk about penalties, talk about improving match making and the tier system, so you don't have players in your game that leave a game despite obviously wanting to play.

From this thread alone and many others the reason people leave are mostly because the match dose not fit what they procive as fair/fun/entertaining. As I have already said these are abstract concepts, what you might find fair/fun/entertaining myself or anyone else may not.

There are many a game out there that people think are amazing, some of those games I don't enjoy. You may not enjoy some of them yourself. That's fine. We are not going to enjoy every game we buy/play for what ever reason.

Every game has a target audience, we as consumers are part of that audience or we are not.

I'm not saying everything is fine with the MM, I know it's not. But I don't think the game is here to entertain me alone, I'm also not saying anyone here thinks that. But by leaving a match, you are costing 7 other people time, and maybe there fun/,entertainment. Sadly though it seems that this is an relivant concern.

It seems like you are trying to compare not liking a game in general to not enjoying rounds where MM did fail. We all like this game in general, we enjoy playing dreadnought, thats probably why we are here and trying to suggest ways to make this game even better. We just don't like having stacked unbalanced matches.

We are not arguing about changing core gameplay mechanics, or anything about gameplay itself, we want better MM and fair teams within that gameplay. So why are you still arguing like "this game just isn't for you"? This game is something we enjoy, we just don't enjoy bad matchmaking. Or are you trying to say that you see bad matchmaking as a critical gameplay element for dreadnought, that one needs to enjoy in order to properly enjoy dreadnought?

And please stop it with the "ruining the fun of 15 others, there are different soluttions to tthat. For example if MM would just refill the empty spot with another player (that might even get an "Reinforcements bonus" for joining midgame so he doesnt instantly leave as well), would any of you care if random guy x just got replaced with random guy y?

Someone didn't read my whole post. I said MM is not fine. You keep saying about things being far and balanced what are you using as your basis for comparison?

MM will replace a leaver, but that can take a few minuets, meaning a game is in all likely hood lost. Thus wasting your teams time and affecting there fun. Saying It's a non issue is just plain arrogance and entitlement.

Your fun, my fun or anyone else's is no more important than the other. I agree someone else's fun should not come at the cost of someone else's. But you are arguing that it dose are you not?

Meathook is right, when I am placed in to a match half way through and its on the losing side by a large margin I already stated I wont stay. Now with his innovative thinking give me a reinforcement bonus that will out weigh the waste of time in playing a match already half over and statistically speaking is already a loss for me if I stay… like 5k EXP split across each ship in my line up or applied to the ship I selected when entering the fight. Heck yea Ill stay for that, but you wanna punish me instead… Ill find another game.

Insidious_Wheat#1950 posted (#post-223141) said:

Meathook is right, when I am placed in to a match half way through and its on the losing side by a large margin I already stated I wont stay. Now with his innovative thinking give me a reinforcement bonus that will out weigh the waste of time in playing a match already half over and statistically speaking is already a loss for me if I stay… like 5k EXP split across each ship in my line up or applied to the ship I selected when entering the fight. Heck yea Ill stay for that, but you wanna punish me instead… Ill find another game.

You do know that if you are dropped into a match that is in progress and you lose you keep your Battle Bonus as a reward for staying.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-223146) said:

Insidious_Wheat#1950 posted (#post-223141) said:

Meathook is right, when I am placed in to a match half way through and its on the losing side by a large margin I already stated I wont stay. Now with his innovative thinking give me a reinforcement bonus that will out weigh the waste of time in playing a match already half over and statistically speaking is already a loss for me if I stay… like 5k EXP split across each ship in my line up or applied to the ship I selected when entering the fight. Heck yea Ill stay for that, but you wanna punish me instead… Ill find another game.

You do know that if you are dropped into a match that is in progress and you lose you keep your Battle Bonus as a reward for staying.

currently what I get is not worth my trouble.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-223139) said:

Someone didn't read my whole post. I said MM is not fine. You keep saying about things being far and balanced what are you using as your basis for comparison?

The basis for one would be Tiers. Tier 4 ships are straight upgrade to tier 3 ships, so having a team with 1 t4 ship fighting against a team with 7 t4 ships isn't fair. Then you have all those metrics the game is collecting, avg score, rank, k/d ratio, w/l ratio. Having a team with 8 under 600 average score players fight a team of 8 over 1400 average score players probably isn't going to be an even fight. So why are you still arguing that fairness is an abstract concept, when other games are able to provide a much better MM-experience using their gathered metrics and derivatives (rank/skill level/elo) to provide even games?

MM will replace a leaver, but that can take a few minuets, meaning a game is in all likely hood lost. Thus wasting your teams time and affecting there fun. Saying It's a non issue is just plain arrogance and entitlement.

I'm not saying that it is a non-issue, it's just not an issue that warrants measures that will impact everyones experience.

Your fun, my fun or anyone else's is no more important than the other. I agree someone else's fun should not come at the cost of someone else's. But you are arguing that it dose are you not?

I'm not arguing that anyone's fun should come at the cost of someone else. I'm saying we should focus more on reducing unfun times within the game instead of making the game even less fun for the playerbase. As already writtin in this thread, the penalty is not going to stop leavers, instead it introduces another unfun mechanic for leavers, may they have left intentionally or not. Having the leaver sit 5 minutes in the hangar won't bring back your missing teammate.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-223035) said:

No MM can not account for a persons personal idea of fair or fun. Both are abstract concepts that mean different things to different people.

there are different enviroments in this game already, we have 3 divisions, and proving grounds, if you are finding matches not to your liking, maybe stick to proving grounds that way, you can have fun by your self, and not have an affect on anyone elses fun.

There is something all players share in what they enjoy. It's the core reason we like to play games. It is that we want to see that our actions matter.

Why do people leave matches? Not because they are frustrated - frustration is at the core of free to play games after all and we chose to partake in it. People leave lopsided games, because they don't see their actions matter. And we all know that you can only do so much as a solo player against a superior team. Noone wants to play this game for the amusement of veteran farming squads.

The only thing that keeps players from leaving is to get them into matches where they have a chance to matter. And if not, that they see they can improve their ship and skill to change that. This can be done by sorting players by game impact and making even teams (or maybe even give one side a handycap).