Rewards for Suicidals

Posted: //
June 29, 2018, 6:09 p.m.


I have an issue with the rewarding system, regarding suicide playstyle.

Even though I know that K/D isn't the most important thing and all, I find it rather unfair that some players who play something like a 10:8 K/D in a match can get top score. I actually feel kind of ashamed, to be honest, when I get top score by suicide K/D and wish there would be some fix.

Sometimes sacrificing your ship might be inevitable to the team's success, yet I think that super offensive gameplay, disregarding any selfsustain and continuous suiciding shouldn't be rewarded with score for high cost kills all the time.

For example playing Vindicta, I think that many players who always complain about rams being op don't realise that it is a high risk maneuvre which needs to pay off if succeeding. However some players just run into the enemy not caring if they get instantly killed, as long as they take one enemy ship down. That's a style that doesn't make sense, I think, and after a while just gets players upset since all they see is "oh, I got rammed again", with no effort being taken to achieve that ram. It takes skill to get your ship out there and instead of being talked down for using it, there should be fairness in score for not getting yourself taken down, instead of putting suicide 10/8 on top rank.

Back in the time of Team Elimination there was an effect I noticed (maybe it was just to myself) that when you switched to the more offensive gameplay of onslaught, for example, you went through there rampaging, since you were being at no risk at all. Whereas in Elimination, if you failed, you'd doom yourself to piloting a little fighter jet that would barely have any effect most of the time. Also you'd reduce your team's firepower and eventually might just lose.

The aspect of survival and evaluation of whether an attack is going to pay off, kinda got lost lately. And honestly: game or not - what captain would sacrifice life, ship and crew at every chance? This spoils the experience of the game "universe" very much to me.

I'm not saying that TE needs to come back now - it wouldn't fit in with the small player base and matchmaking difficulties at the time (though I do hope to enjoy this great game mode at some point in the near future again).

Also punishment for deaths wouldn't be wise, since players would start swatting disliked opponents to kill their score.

Ribbons for kill streaks, survival etc is not enough, I think. Specially since revenge is also rewarded.

Unfortunately I have no suggestion on how to fix this issue, but I hope that this post might get other players to brainstorm some ideas that reward even a 2:0 over a suicide rampage ship (If it contributed to the team, ofcourse)

I know that not just in my opinion, this poses a problem.

Posted: //
June 29, 2018, 6:25 p.m.

Didnt read all that wall, but I'm absolutely with you regarding this threads name. This is at least as bad as supporting actions not being rewarded in any kind (energy missile, cloak pulse ect). I really hope this will get reworked or completely overhauled in the not so far future.

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Posted: //
June 29, 2018, 6:33 p.m.

I'm not sure that this is really a problem in terms of gameplay, though I do agree with its impacts on the scoring system. I personaly never really care about score, but I can see how this would be frusterating for someone who does care.

Like I said, eye-for-an-eye gameplay and builds are, for lack of a better term, "strategies" that certain players adopt more often than not. I almost never see multiple players with a 10:8ish on the winning team, but I'm almost sure that that is just my experience because it seems like it would happen all the time.

If you ask me, I think the best way to settle this is with one of two options:

1- Punish players twice or maybe even three times as much for dying than you would reward them for kills. For example, a kill would reward you with 200 points, where a death would cost you 600. 2- Neutralize kill points if a player dies within a certain amount of time of the kill. For example, a vindicta pulls in to ram a tac. The vindicta is rewarded 200 points for the kill, but dies within ten seconds, so that 200 points is retracted and they are penalized an extra 100 or so.

While it seems strange, this gameplay does work when you do it right. An enemy tac is worth sacrificing a destroyer for more often than not, especialy in legendary matches. It shouldn't be punished, but negated? You are probably correct.

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Posted: //
June 29, 2018, 6:33 p.m.

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Posted: //
June 29, 2018, 7:14 p.m.

Survival instinct briefing is a major ressource for suicidal build, not having this briefing would disable those build and gameplay. As it would also limit defence ressource, so. This briefing is a bit too strong imo, but it's not a bad idea overall. Maybe it could be balance in some way...i dunno...

Posted: //
June 29, 2018, 7:33 p.m.

No, just no!

Could you imagine how much the game would lose players if...

...after going into a clearly dangerous conquest control point, manage against uneven odds to win that control point, that you lose your personnal score because you died a couple of seconds after winning it.

...after you get behind enemy lines and manage to destroy one or two healers belonging to those nasty "heal ball", so that your team can destroy the rest of the enemies, you get penalised because the opposing team obviously focused their attention on you.

...after a bad matchmaking, where you have been fighting way stronger opponents, you get a bad score for dying so much.

...more often than not, you didn't score point because you're flying a corvette, ship that realy encourage a high risk high reward playstyle.

See, from the point of view of the game, of the programming, there is no way to tell the difference between a Vindicta doing suicide charges and a dreadnought holding the line and dying right after a kill. High risk high rewards playstyle in games creates drama and that's a good thing. The best moment in this game is when I manage to kill my opponent before he gest to kill me and survive with less than 200 hp, so close to death, but victorious. If dying would penalyse the score, the current game meta would change drastically, with even more heal-balling and standardized defensive tactics.


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Posted: //
June 29, 2018, 7:40 p.m.

But then you could link these ideas with the modules and the player's surroundings. For example:

If a player dies within five seconds after using ram and killing an enemy player, and the player that killed that player is within 1km, then they get penalized.

It's a lot of if-then variables, but it is not a "No, just no!" situation.

If the kills and deaths are in a one-to-one ratio then a death would cancel out a kill, and prevent suicide tactics.

But from what I understand, you were complaining about this. That is why I suggested what I did. A one-to-three kill death ratio instead.

Other factors, such as how close the kills and deaths are for a player, could contribute as well. If a player has a lot of kills, a death could take more points. A player with only one kill and two deaths might not be penalized as much on their third death.

There are many ways you could fix this, I was just giving ideas. You don't have to agree with them.

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Posted: //
June 30, 2018, 3:40 a.m.

@ Hypervolt: "But from what I understand, you were complaining about this." - I guess you confused the names by the profile images.

Daganisoraan is completely right. You can not punish death and risky maneuvres in general. If a T3 works hard for it's kill, or if you play tac and just get focused, or whatever - you will be punished for doing your job and sometimes really helping the team by sacrificing your ship.

And I completely agree that it's part of the fun that people move in to get things done instead of holding back for the sake of saving their score.

That is what I think is the problem.

It seems to be almost impossible to me to balance out what is suicide gameplay and what is necessary or at least contributing sacrifice, just by general game mechanics.

Posted: //
June 30, 2018, 3:41 a.m.

Punishing people for deaths via score is a bad idea. Seeing as progression is tied to score I'm dead against anything that slows progression.

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Posted: //
June 30, 2018, 3:49 a.m.

About the survival instinct: I don't think it helps much with suicide gameplay. The intention of using it, is usually getting a chance of escape after being trapped, or excecuting a risky attack, or to punish pursuers by leaving a "goodby present".

It takes the spot of sometimes very effective module and doesn't pose an advantage, in my opinion. I used DM on all my ships earlier and after getting used to using the other modules it's just left on some corvettes for making a run when being hit.

Suicide gameplay isn't ship or module specific. And sometimes it's just lack of experience - take the vindi for example again: figuring out how to ram into the enemy is relatively easy - yet figuring out how to get out most of the times is quite difficult. The process of learning and refining skills shouldn't be punished.

Direct punishment is generally the wrong approach, I think.

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