FORUMS


Lopsided games and tier-mismatched battles



Posted: //
Aug. 9, 2018, 4:02 p.m.


Updated //
Aug. 10, 2018, 3:02 a.m.

Whoa, it seems I stirred up quite a conversation. Allow me to try and wrangle the various points being made and address them.

1) It's a MM problem!

I think this is false, unless the MM would work strictly on some magical number of "how much total XP a player has gotten in a given tier"... but then this doesn't take everything else into account a good MM should take. My main issue with the MM argument is that a player may choose to several ships at will, and this can range from fully upgraded T4s to partially upgraded T3s to "pristine" T3s, and I think if the MM had to take into account the selected fleet every time, then it would really make for a hard match-making. Not to mention it would be somewhat exploitable: pick one fully loaded T4 and a bunch of pristine T3s, and... what, you get thrown into a match with mostly T3 newbies? It also doesn't really work the other way - if the mythical MM would take the total tier XP earned, then progressing through a new T3->T4 while already having some T4s levelled up would be just as unfun (the only added bonus is the player in question will be more experienced). Finally, while MM matching players of different skill in an otherwise balanced game can also be a problem, that will quickly be identified by the community as a problem with just the MM. However problems with the core game balance tend to be identified as problems with the GAME in its entirety which leads to bad rep and players moving on to other games.

2) It's a player count problem!

I think this is also wrong, since the game mechanically permits unfair battles. While the issue might be partially alleviated while the player count is high with lots of fresh players, unfair battles will happen, and each unfair battle is sure to have a negative impact on the player numbers, making the problem more and more visible for those who haven't yet left and haven't finished the grind.

3) Without imbalanced matches there will be no reason to progress!

Hardly true, with the ever-growing number of skills and options available at later tiers which are enticing by themselves. Besides, players could choose to stick to playing in the rookie queue with T2s – in theory there’s already no reason to progress. In fact, given the experience some players might have when delving into T3, they might decide to just stick with T2 anyway (if they don’t leave the game completely that is).

4) It’s a T3 / T4 problem!

Hmm, perhaps? The gap between ships of these tiers is indeed rather large, mechanically, and perhaps lumping them together wouldn’t be such an issue if T3 were more powerful or had access to more goodies. BUT I’d argue that since higher tiers are objectively better than lower tiers (player skill excluded), relying on this as the sole redeeming factor is still a bit dangerous, if player perception of the game is concerned. That imbalance WILL be picked up on.

Ultimately, I’d like to see the game succeed as I do feel it does a lot of things really well (and, subsequently, I’d like to see the developers make money on this title). However, the game doesn’t exist in isolation, and while space battle games such as this might not be plentiful (I can only think of Fringe Wars of the top of my head), multiplayer team games are. So DN needs to be not only interesting and attractive in terms of initial presentation but also shouldn’t drive people away with unfun games or extensive grind later down the line. Unless Greybox developers are deliberately aiming for a small but dedicated playerbase, and hope to survive off of just this group...


Posted: //
Aug. 9, 2018, 4:56 p.m.



The MM currently uses a few factors when trying to balance a match.

Fleet rating. What 5 ships you are using, what teir are they, how geared are they, are any hero ships. All this gives you a fleet rating. The higher the teir and geared/fully resurched the ships, the higher your fleet rating.(hero ships count as fully resurched ship and give the highest fleet ratings points)

You win loss ratio. The more you win, the more the game will try to put you against people with similar win/loss. This is not separated by division I believe. So if you did really well in recruit, you could end up against people with more experience than you when you move up to veteran.

Are you in a squad. Squads currently are matched against squads of any size and player level. Meaning a squad of 2 new T3 players could face a squad of 4 level 50 T4 players. This is where the MM is a bit broken.

The MM will also assume you will use your strongest ship in the match. So you could be on a team where a player has T4's in 4 of there 5 slots but spends the whole match playing a T3. The MM can not account for human behaviour. You could argue that the MM should think you will use your lowest ship, but that could lead to players manipulating the MM.

A match making system needs a minimum number of players to work correctly. If you don't have enough, you end up with badly balanced matches because the MM is doing the best it can, out side of it's set parameters.

The MM is currently set to get people in to matches as fast as possible, or so I've been told by other players, so I can't say that is fact, but I trust the players who said it so that's why I've brought it up.


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Posted: //
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:12 a.m.


Updated //
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:14 a.m.

Here's the BS I need to deal with:

BS match

Clearly T4s are dominating and doing stuff, while T3s are cannon fodder. Not to mention the imbalanced T4 counts to begin with...

PS. I was a healer during this match, but switch as clearly this wasn't working out. Heck, during games like these I feel like going AFK, really, cos there's NOTHING I CAN DO!


Posted: //
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:30 a.m.



Shaamaan#2419 posted (#post-224602) said:

Here's the BS I need to deal with:

BS match

Clearly T4s are dominating and doing stuff, while T3s are cannon fodder. Not to mention the imbalanced T4 counts to begin with...

PS. I was a healer during this match, but switch as clearly this wasn't working out. Heck, during games like these I feel like going AFK, really, cos there's NOTHING I CAN DO!

Yes there is an issue that has been brought up by many on the forums however, as frustrating as it may be, Greybox does not feel the number of players they are losing to this issue is great enough, otherwise they would address it.

Unfortunately this means you either find a way to live with it, or find another game you enjoy playing that you feel gives better balance.

I obviously hope more people will stay than leave and we have the Steam update coming tomorrow (remember, tomorrow is always a day away lol), but if new players start getting annoyed with this you will have a tidal wave of negative reviews and comments which will not help.


Posted: //
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:52 a.m.



Shaamaan#2419 posted (#post-224602) said:

Here's the BS I need to deal with:

BS match

Clearly T4s are dominating and doing stuff, while T3s are cannon fodder. Not to mention the imbalanced T4 counts to begin with...

PS. I was a healer during this match, but switch as clearly this wasn't working out. Heck, during games like these I feel like going AFK, really, cos there's NOTHING I CAN DO!

This looks to me like you had problems getting the opposing command ship. This can be quite hard if your team is disorganized; even more so, when there is healing on the other team. Judging from the rank differences I'd say more t4s on your side would not have made the difference, the team behaviour was the deciding factor.


Posted: //
Aug. 12, 2018, 7:36 a.m.


Updated //
Aug. 12, 2018, 7:41 a.m.

Shaamaan#2419 posted (#post-224602) said:

Here's the BS I need to deal with:

BS match

Clearly T4s are dominating and doing stuff, while T3s are cannon fodder. Not to mention the imbalanced T4 counts to begin with...

PS. I was a healer during this match, but switch as clearly this wasn't working out. Heck, during games like these I feel like going AFK, really, cos there's NOTHING I CAN DO!

There team was carried by 2 players. By the score your team was a disorganised mess, I say this going purely on the scores of the players on both teams. You even out scored a T4. Score like this are common when people play TDM in onslaught.

This is nothing more than a skill issue in this case. The other team had more skill. Your whole team could have been T4's, and I'm confident the end result would have been the same.


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Posted: //
Aug. 12, 2018, 9:19 a.m.



Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-224609) said:

Shaamaan#2419 posted (#post-224602) said:

Here's the BS I need to deal with:

BS match

Clearly T4s are dominating and doing stuff, while T3s are cannon fodder. Not to mention the imbalanced T4 counts to begin with...

PS. I was a healer during this match, but switch as clearly this wasn't working out. Heck, during games like these I feel like going AFK, really, cos there's NOTHING I CAN DO!

There team was carried by 2 players. By the score your team was a disorganised mess, I say this going purely on the scores of the players on both teams. You even out scored a T4. Score like this are common when people play TDM in onslaught.

This is nothing more than a skill issue in this case. The other team had more skill. Your whole team could have been T4's, and I'm confident the end result would have been the same.

That T4 on our team with THAT score... I mean, it's REALLY low - I'd wager he was AFK and / or joined late (like the guy behind him). Sure, two people carried, but I seriously doubt they could have done this in T3s, which is the POINT here - T4s (leveled up) are massively OP compared to T3s, and even stock T4s are better than stock T3s.

Were there skill issues in the match above? Definitely. HOW the MM is currently assigning teams is a mystery to me, and all this talk of the MM doing a better job with more people seems quite unfounded. I mean, someone above you even stated there was a rank difference to begin with. So, the fantastic MM throws MORE T4s on one team with higher ranked people? Couldn't it have mixed this match a bit more? Perhaps there were squads on the other team, that I don't know, but that just throws an extra wrench into the whole thing and makes me think this ABSOLUTELY isn't a MM issue.


Posted: //
Aug. 12, 2018, 10:02 a.m.


Updated //
Aug. 12, 2018, 10:39 a.m.

Why just not add another fleet ? It would be playable with tier 2-3 ships of which there should be plenty of when the game launches on steam. So hopefully this shouldnt slow down the queue times. The tier 2 ships that participate should get bonus exp though. And OB's would be disabled of course.


Posted: //
Aug. 12, 2018, 10:34 a.m.



Shaamaan#2419 posted (#post-224612) said:

That T4 on our team with THAT score... I mean, it's REALLY low - I'd wager he was AFK and / or joined late (like the guy behind him). Sure, two people carried, but I seriously doubt they could have done this in T3s, which is the POINT here - T4s (leveled up) are massively OP compared to T3s, and even stock T4s are better than stock T3s.

Were there skill issues in the match above? Definitely. HOW the MM is currently assigning teams is a mystery to me, and all this talk of the MM doing a better job with more people seems quite unfounded. I mean, someone above you even stated there was a rank difference to begin with. So, the fantastic MM throws MORE T4s on one team with higher ranked people? Couldn't it have mixed this match a bit more? Perhaps there were squads on the other team, that I don't know, but that just throws an extra wrench into the whole thing and makes me think this ABSOLUTELY isn't a MM issue.

There is not that big a power gap between T3's and T4's, it is a skill issue. This is what I can do In a fresh T3 ship with T2 mods.

https://image.ibb.co/jGDArU/what_a_fresh_T3_can_do.png

Yes MM could be better. I've explained how MM works in this thread. already But I'll say it again.

The MM currently uses a few factors when trying to balance a match.

Fleet rating. What 5 ships you are using, what teir are they, how geared are they, are any hero ships. All this gives you a fleet rating. The higher the teir and geared/fully resurched the ships, the higher your fleet rating.(hero ships count as fully resurched ship and give the highest fleet ratings points)

You win loss ratio. The more you win, the more the game will try to put you against people with similar win/loss. This is not separated by division I believe. So if you did really well in recruit, you could end up against people with more experience than you when you move up to veteran.

Are you in a squad. Squads currently are matched against squads of any size and player level. Meaning a squad of 2 new T3 players could face a squad of 4 level 50 T4 players. This is where the MM is a bit broken.

The MM will also assume you will use your strongest ship in the match. So you could be on a team where a player has T4's in 4 of there 5 slots but spends the whole match playing a T3. The MM can not account for human behaviour. You could argue that the MM should think you will use your lowest ship, but that could lead to players manipulating the MM.

A match making system needs a minimum number of players to work correctly. If you don't have enough, you end up with badly balanced matches because the MM is doing the best it can, out side of it's set parameters.

The MM is currently set to get people in to matches as fast as possible, or so I've been told by other players, so I can't say that is fact, but I trust the players who said it so that's why I've brought it up.


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Posted: //
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:55 p.m.



I still think that making Veteran tier 3 only would not only address a lot of balance complaints, but would also allow for regular Legendary sessions.

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