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Why Wargaming used power-tier system, and why you shouldn't



Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 12:43 p.m.


Updated //
Nov. 4, 2016, 12:44 p.m.

Its more than once i am seen comment like: "They just copied Wargaming tier system, with no idea what they are doing" in the chat during and after the game.

As much as it sounds rude, it feel more and more that its how it is. Where its understandable that you wanted to learn from other games, unfortunately you seem learned the wrong thing. For Wargaming it wasn't really like: "Hey, this power tiers seems like and awesome idea, lets use it!". In World of Warships (in particular) their goal was recreate pseudo-historical battles, with large variety of ship from 19th to 20th century. And where technically they've could balance so that mid 19th century ship could compete with mid 20th century ship, battles like this would look ridiculous. So for them it was more like: "We don't really have a choice but to pick this power-tier system, and try balance it as best as we can".

You however making game about future spaceships. And no one really will come and say: "hey, this ship just can't compete again that ship, its just ridiculous!". So there is literally no need for you to use power-tiers at all!
When you first told about 2.0 progression, you were just mentioned that you want make it easier for players to unlock ships they really what to fly (which is also not working, because of ridiculous 50,000k price for tier-3 ships, but that another topic). And me personally expected to game to be mostly the same, with just linear progression evolved into tier progression. Which is awesome idea btw. But i completely didn't expect that you actually meant higher tier ship been plainly more powerful in EVERYTHING compare to lower tier. I though they would just have more customization options. And i bet i am far not the only one who had such expectations.

I know it was hard enough for you to make this whole new tier system, and i personally don't think you need to waste another half year of development to make some other 3.0 progression system. It just this exactly tier system need heavy tweaking. In particular, as i already mentioned it in another topic - all tiers should be balanced with each other. You don't really need complicating matchmaking so higher tiers should play only with higher tiers. You just need to make that tier-5 ship would be roughly as powerful as its original tier-1 brother. It should have absolutely same main guns. It would have higher variety of secondary guns to chose from (though of course you also should give tier-1 ship fixed secondary guns as well then). Higher variety of modules, none of which would be plainly more powerful than similar on lower tiers. And higher variety of officer briefings (again with ensuring that tier-1 have fixed set of officer briefings).
Yes, higher customization still obviously gives the advantage over those who have less customization options for his ship. But if you think about it its not so bad. yes, in single taken match person with tier-5 ship can excel again team with mostly tier-1 and tier-2. But that's actually means that he also get a very nice score. High K/D ratio, lots of damage done, good support provided for the team and so on. And providing that you MatchMaking Rating system actually works and he gets much higher MMR, in the next match he will be put against stronger players. Eventually that person might encounter situation where he in his tier-5 ship can't beat team of tier-1 ships, just because they are actually better than him, and can excel even with 'fixed' ships they have at tier-1.

So that's that. The only really bad thing in original system was linear progression. Balancing wasn't really bad at all. And nothing wrong now that you have so many more ships - nevertheless balance them all together, as single power tier. Counting higher tiers only for higher customization.

P.S. Actually to think of it, higher tier ship might have bit different primary weapons, but not as plain upgrade again. Just different stats on same type of gun. Something better, something worse compare to original tier-1 gun.


Posted: //
Nov. 5, 2016, 1:33 a.m.



Thanks for the awesome post Redwyrm, you bring up a lot of good points about the power difference between tiers. This is something we are very heavily monitoring and especially when ships of different tiers are frequently showing up in each others matches, this power swing can appear wildly unbalanced.

The data we are getting back from matches in this closed beta are going to help us make the right balancing and progression flow decisions. Hopefully we can address your concerns in an update soon


Sean McIntosh
Dreadnought Community Manager


Posted: //
Nov. 5, 2016, 5:27 a.m.



@DN_EmptyTuxedo

But you are ignoring the feedback about the progression system which artificially induces grind mechanics

As a company, who ever made the decision to change the game into SHIPYARDS progression needs his or her position evaluated. Gone is all the good will, that most players had when signing up. In fact, if the game doesn't lose these stupid grind mechanics introduced or a good compromiose, I want an option to have a refund on my foundry pack


Posted: //
Nov. 5, 2016, 10:02 a.m.


Updated //
Nov. 5, 2016, 10:04 a.m.

The progression system 2.0 is here and it's gonna stay.Plenty of adjustments though are on the way.With first on tuesday update with lowered cost of tier 3 ships etc,i dont know exactly what changes we will have though.I mentioned it on another post,but i will say it here too,the more you play,the more you get the feel of of the rpogression tree,the more it makes sence,its just something new on Dreadnought.I kinda love the fact that i can check what path i can take on every ship,plus the "old" dreadnought feel gameplay is at top tiers 4/5(actually starting at tier 3).Its just a bit simplified for new players at starting tiers,to help em at start.


"The First Of His Name"


Posted: //
Nov. 5, 2016, 12:55 p.m.


Updated //
Nov. 5, 2016, 1:35 p.m.

DN_EmptyTuxedo#3505 posted (#post-53051)

Thanks for the awesome post Redwyrm, you bring up a lot of good points about the power difference between tiers. This is something we are very heavily monitoring and especially when ships of different tiers are frequently showing up in each others matches, this power swing can appear wildly unbalanced.

The data we are getting back from matches in this closed beta are going to help us make the right balancing and progression flow decisions. Hopefully we can address your concerns in an update soon

You wanna fix the error? Remove tiers, TA-DA done.

Also, while at it. Triple, or even quantify the income per match. You have efficently done nothing but segregated the already low population, and what you need, is to get players to top ASAP.

Besides, OP, that phrase is not rude when it's true.


Posted: //
Nov. 7, 2016, 12:28 a.m.



Odin#5262 posted (#post-53097)

The progression system 2.0 is here and it's gonna stay.Plenty of adjustments though are on the way.With first on tuesday update with lowered cost of tier 3 ships etc,i dont know exactly what changes we will have though.I mentioned it on another post,but i will say it here too,the more you play,the more you get the feel of of the rpogression tree,the more it makes sence,its just something new on Dreadnought.I kinda love the fact that i can check what path i can take on every ship,plus the "old" dreadnought feel gameplay is at top tiers 4/5(actually starting at tier 3).Its just a bit simplified for new players at starting tiers,to help em at start.

Seems every post you and the other fella make, are suggesting others to "like" the changes. A lot more people have given feedback that this patch makes them question the direction of this game. Are you guys getting the inside from Yager in your acceptance of the changes? Coz everyone else doesn't seem to see what you two are seem to be seeing. I am into tier 3 and I don't feel it as you mentioned compared to previous patch. Nuff said for me, the last thing i would want (and many other it seems) is to "work" to play a game.


Posted: //
Nov. 7, 2016, 1:09 a.m.



So Far. So good, but again I'm taking very small steps in evaluating this.


Posted: //
Nov. 7, 2016, 5:13 a.m.


Updated //
Nov. 7, 2016, 5:13 a.m.

Well I would actually love to see more ships as you stated. Right now we only have upgrades of previous ships and that's it. It would be nice if all ships would be on the same power level but different tiers of the same ship have different properties. For example speed, hull, range, maybe even different main weapons! But of course every adavantage should be compensated with drawback in another area. When I put is simple... make all ships interesting in some way! It will probably be pain to balance at first but I believe it's worth it.


Posted: //
Nov. 7, 2016, 8:54 a.m.


Updated //
Nov. 7, 2016, 9:14 a.m.

Muyadude#4676 posted (#post-53844)

Seems every post you and the other fella make, are suggesting others to "like" the changes. A lot more people have given feedback that this patch makes them question the direction of this game. Are you guys getting the inside from Yager in your acceptance of the changes? Coz everyone else doesn't seem to see what you two are seem to be seeing. I am into tier 3 and I don't feel it as you mentioned compared to previous patch. Nuff said for me, the last thing i would want (and many other it seems) is to "work" to play a game.

No,just some of us are following Dreadnought for quite a while.if you have a tier 4 hero shi and u can test it,the whole game we had before is at tier 4/5.The slow gameplay with secondaries,officer briefings etc.i am not suggesting anyone to like the new patch,i am suggesting to test it before dislike it(we are beta testers),cause we are just at the start,its still fresh,and hot fixes are already on the way based on our feedback(starting with tomorrow,tier 3 reduced cost etc).I am just posting my positive feedback,the point is that i never disliked the tier system,and actually like it in most games i played(wargaming etc).There isnt a basic formula to make a f2p game work for everyone,some people will like it,other will not.If you like a game you adopt,Dreadnought is not perfectly shapped yet,its closed beta,and the more important Devs are actually listening to us.If you however understand how Companies work,this decision with the new progression system is here to stay,they will try to get closer to what makes most of players happy,but going to the older progression isnt the answer.


"The First Of His Name"


Posted: //
Nov. 7, 2016, 9:11 a.m.



SpaceWolf#0734 posted (#post-53857)

Well I would actually love to see more ships as you stated. Right now we only have upgrades of previous ships and that's it. It would be nice if all ships would be on the same power level but different tiers of the same ship have different properties. For example speed, hull, range, maybe even different main weapons! But of course every adavantage should be compensated with drawback in another area. When I put is simple... make all ships interesting in some way! It will probably be pain to balance at first but I believe it's worth it.

Exactly the ships should pretty much be balanced in a way they were before this whole progression 2.0

And Odin the funny thing is A LOT of the complains about the new progression systems were said before it was released as well, but the devs did not seem at that point to really care enough to think too much about those complains, I dont really feel like they listening to the community AT ALL regarding progression 2.0 before it was released.

So yeah if nothing quite drastic are done about the power-tiers being straight upgrades to ships soon, I too would like to have an option to refund the founders pack as well

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