FORUMS


RE: the 11/4 stream and 'pay 2 win'



Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 6:58 p.m.


Updated //
Nov. 4, 2016, 7:01 p.m.

So I was watching the stream recap/replay and something kinda shocked me.

Apparently, the reason that modules and ships are no longer buyable with credits OR GP, is because the developers thought that was pay to win... and then Thor likened it to the issue where they made Officer briefings buyable with GP only.

This is so far off base and wrong I'm struggling to find where to start... but here goes.
This is my personal definition of pay to win. It may not reflect everyones' (and I hope people post their own definitions, if different from my own, below in the replies)

Pay to win;

  • When items are available in game, that affect the balance of power, and are only buyable with real life currency (Shortened to IRL$ here-on-out). This is what happened earlier, with the officer briefings being 100% pay to win.

  • When items are available in game, that affect the balance of power, and are buyable with IRL$ and ABSURD amounts of grinded ingame current. (please note; the capitalization and emphasis on ABSURD.) This would be selling a 1000 credit module for 10 IRL$ (1000 credits easily earned in 1 game, or 20 minutes)

So to define what absurd truly means.

Let's take your average american citizen who actually plays games.. Young, likely minimum wage, or even middle-aged, but with family and lots of expenses. They don't have TONS of disposable income.

For examples sake, we'll say they take home 5$ an hour of disposable income. (they may make 15, or 100$ an hour, but the amount of money per hour they work that they want to spend on a game is 5$ an hour.

That means if I play the game for an hour, and I make 5000 credits, than the equivalent buying power of 5000 credits to ME is 5$.

Some people define their 'fun factor' and how much that should 'cost' differently than I do. I respect that. My general definition falls around that 5$ is worth 1 hour of playtime in earnings due to how much movies cost around here.. eg; it costs me 10$ for a movie ticket, for maybe 2 hours of entertainment... that's 5$ and hour to sit there and watch something.

disclaimer: I'm using time/money ratios here that look a little high, personally I'd prefer them lower, but.. they are what they are.. fake numbers to prove a point.

So, I'm sure people (and Devs) have spreadsheets of average earnings of players now.. .. and if you had, lets say, a Tier 3 ship (Currently 50,000 credits).. and you expected people to make 2500 credits an hour .. that ship would be buyable in 20 hours of gameplay.

You could sell that ship for 100$, and it would not be considered pay to win (in my opinion), because my choice is to grind out 20 hours, or buy that ship and save myself 20 hours.

I will note that I think 50,000 credits at 2500 credits avg earnings per hour is VERY HIGH... but when it comes to 'pricing' the ship, in IRL$, 5$ an hour to earn it is 'reasonable', and not 'absurd'.


Now of course Devs' have many options open to them.. By restricting modules/ships to NOT be buyable with IRL$, they've made elite status (a .. 50%? 30%? the display thing says both), increase in credits earned, VERY worthwhile. So if the intention is for them to make most their money via elite status, then yes, keep it as is. Don't sell ships and modules for IRL$.

Personally I hate the 'nickel and diming' aspect of some F2P games. For example, this converting ship xp to free xp thing really ticks me off. I won't have a history in front of me of how much Ive spent on that.. its seductive and slimy. I dislike it from an honorable point of view, and I hope it gets removed. If it stays in it may not keep me from playing.. but its on that list I have in my mind of 'reasons to stay the CENSORED away from this game'

I would MUCH prefer straight up prices on modules and ships (and officer briefings) that reflect options... eg; grind this hard for it for this much time, or buy it outright for X IRL$

If they keep this free xp thing, then at the very least, if you have PAID for a ship (Talking Hero ships atm, but if other ships became buyable, then them too.), you should not have to pay MORE to convert its ship xp to free xp.

CENSORED, that could even be a thing.. Buy the ship with IRL$? All ship xp you earn from it is free xp... This way, consumers have a choice, they grind and buy the old fashion way, but have to pay later if they want to convert ship xp off it, OR, they can buy the ship with IRL$, and have all ship xp from that ship be free xp, for life. THAT would convince me to buy more ships with IRL$.


Anyways I realize this got a little off topic, but I wanted the key point to be heard: Pay to Win does NOT mean you can't sell IN GAME POWER.. It simply means you can't sell it ONLY for IRL$. It must be earnable ingame as well.


Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 7:08 p.m.



I'd rather go back from the progression update, that way you can buy as many ships as you like and not have a 100-200 hours advantage over other players just because the ship is T4. Literally the only reason hero ships are so OP RIGHT NOW. Tier system will not work in it's current state. Remove it or makes T1 only fight T1 not T2(T1)-T4


Professional players make a living. Semi-pro's get paid enough to try again.


Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 7:13 p.m.



Pantong#7792 posted (#post-53024)

I'd rather go back from the progression update, that way you can buy as many ships as you like and not have a 100-200 hours advantage over other players just because the ship is T4. Literally the only reason hero ships are so OP RIGHT NOW. Tier system will not work in it's current state. Remove it or makes T1 only fight T1 not T2(T1)-T4

-p-

Trying to translate this a bit..

When the Founders packs were released, they weren't pay to win. There was no tiers, etc etc..

Now, having bought them, and the ability where I queue into a game as a T4 ship, and get placed against weaker ships, that, THAT, has become pay to win... And will continue to be pay to win for as long as buyable ships are able to fight against weaker ships in an entirely different bracket.


Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 7:16 p.m.



I heard that on the stream and was very confused with their reasoning.
With the current ship/module prices they are basicly ruining the value of XP because you always have too much of that, wich then ALSO makes converting XP to free XP useless, wich is by the way just as much Pay2Win as buying Modules/Ships with GP. Its just a weird decision, also bad for the devs because there are a lot of people wasting money just to get to max level faster^^


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Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 7:23 p.m.



Kazma#2232 posted (#post-53027)

I heard that on the stream and was very confused with their reasoning.
With the current ship/module prices they are basicly ruining the value of XP because you always have too much of that, wich then ALSO makes converting XP to free XP useless, wich is by the way just as much Pay2Win as buying Modules/Ships with GP. Its just a weird decision, also bad for the devs because there are a lot of people wasting money just to get to max level faster^^

-p-

Not sure I agree that the xp convert to free xp is pay2win. It's no different than buying an xp boost to your 'free xp' earnings... But don't get me wrong, I hate the nickle and diming aspect of it.. but it truly is a 'pay to lessen the grind'... it just doesn't do it well because sure, you unlocked some modules, but you can't afford them because you still need credits.


Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 8:01 p.m.



Jeslis, at least be consistent. If you say:

Jeslis#8939 posted (#post-53021)

Pay to win;

  • When items are available in game, that affect the balance of power, and are only buyable with real life currency (Shortened to IRL$ here-on-out).

you cannot then turn around and say:

Jeslis#8939 posted (#post-53025)

Now, having bought them, and the ability where I queue into a game as a T4 ship, and get placed against weaker ships, that, THAT, has become pay to win... And will continue to be pay to win for as long as buyable ships are able to fight against weaker ships in an entirely different bracket.

There's nothing pay 2 win about that according to your definition - you're free to grind out a T4 ship of your own and go seal clubbing with it without paying any real money. The only thing you'll be missing are the cosmetics and they provide no in game power.

What we have is pay 2 grind less, although some will argue that if the the grind is so massive that most free players either won't get it done at all or at least not within a reasonable amount of time then skipping that with real money results in pay 2 win as well. Different definition to yours though.

As to the rest you have to understand that at the end of the day free 2 play game developers want only two things from you: Your money and your play time, and the play time is just to enable a situation where you or others will spend money. That's why monetizing full content skipping (paying for ships with real money) rather than just earning boosters is not always an easy decision. If they let you skip content they lose the play time element from you. And in games that focus on the grind as the major game play element that's a big deal because they do not expect you to put in more play time after the grind is done. Wargaming solves that by constantly creating new grind opportunities (new vehicles) but DN would have to add a full new manufacturer tree to do that.


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Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 8:10 p.m.


Updated //
Nov. 4, 2016, 8:14 p.m.

Ehh @Snib.. yes and no.

Its a matchmaking bracket issue. eg; You are, atm, allowed to 'buy' Tier 4 ships, which no one else can get to without 'absurd' grind, and then use these t4 ships in T1-2 battle ques.

Its a 'bug' causing a pay2win scenario. Its not intended pay2win.. and once T4 ships can't be used in the T1-2 bracket, it'll be fixed.

Basically I'm CYOA'ing myself by the definition of 'absurd grind'. .. Its not fair or reasonable to expect a new player, getting constantly killed by a T4 ship in the T1-2 bracket, to be able to 'grind out' without paying money, his/her way up to a T4 ship to be competitive.

Now, you can disagree with that being unfair and unreasonable, and thats your call.

I'll agree that on the scale of "OMG SO PAY 2 WIN I QUIT", and.. 'hmm, that might be pay to win' .. the current hero ship T4 in T1-2 battles is definitely closer to the 'hmm that might be pay to win', side of things.

edit; I feel I should clarify this statement a bit more:

"When items are available in game, that affect the balance of power, and are only buyable with real life currency (Shortened to IRL$ here-on-out)."

So what I mean by that is more the .. Officer briefings being ONLY buyable with IRL$... or, for example, if there was a Tier 2.5 ship you could buy and use in the T1-2 bracket, that was ONLY IRL$ buyable... or a Tier6 that was IRL$ only.

That kind of thing.

Hero ships aren't under my 'buyable only' umbrella, because the 'hero' aspect is just cosmetic, everything else about them is earnable (the absurdness of the grind is arguable).. and so when you're contrasting that specific point, to the whole T4 in T1-2 games issue.. its not really what I was trying to get at re; pay 2 win.

Also please note, I was only attempting to translate what the guy above me said. My OP post is oriented towards the whole why/why aren't modules/ships buyable.


Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 8:54 p.m.



Well as far as I am concerned they should just let people buy everything they want to with GP, better get the money in while they still can. smile


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Posted: //
Nov. 4, 2016, 11:03 p.m.



I mean I made this thread about ideas and ways devs could monetise the game in a way that wouldn't be seen as p2w but it seems noone except 1 person bothered to post on it....

https://www.greybox.com/dreadnought/en/forum/topic/13310/


Posted: //
Nov. 5, 2016, 10:32 a.m.



Snib#1627 posted (#post-53035)

Well as far as I am concerned they should just let people buy everything they want to with GP, better get the money in while they still can. smile

Agreed but imagine all the negative posts after that cause..about p2w..
In my opinion there isnt a specific or unique definition of the actual f2p mechanic.


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