FORUMS


Corvettes: potentially overpowered?



Posted: //
May 7, 2017, 10:46 a.m.



Divide-By-Zero#3135 posted (#post-119646)

Sokar#2711 posted (#post-119644)

Divide-By-Zero#3135 posted (#post-119635)

"it takes FAR more energy to counter a Vette than it takes to pick one."

No s**t sherlock. Same goes for Dreadnoughts. You simply press a button and pick one, but when you're out there it needs the enemy team to focus on you to bring you down. Do you know why? Cause that's the dreadnought's role. It's a tank.
The Corvette is a rogue. It's fast, stealthy and punishes hard when it finds an opening or a weakened target. But it's also fragile. It NEEDS you to keep an eye out for it and counter it before it punishes you. That doesn't make it OP.
And no, the game as it is, is all about destroyers and dreadnoughts. We could rename it "Destroyer" i guess but "Dreadnought" still works.

Also about the "elite vs common players" thing.. The "elite" aka experienced players are the ones that you can say have figured out the game mechanics and possibilities better, therefore know a thing or two more about the beginners. The elite is not some kind of mutants with an innate ability to counter corvettes better than you. They have died a lot and they have experimented a lot and they found out what works.

If we designed this game based on the opnion of anyone that ragequit after dying 10 times from a corvette, we'd have a mess of a game. Some games have a learning curve and sometimes it's steep. Take the time to go outside of the beginner's comfort zone of just flying your ship around without a care in the world and you'll find out that vettes aren't as bad as people make them sound.

Are they annoying and require an effort? For sure. Is that so bad for the game? In my opinion, no. If we start making everything really easy to deal with, i want no part of this, it isn't challenging, it doesn't make me a better player, it isn't fun for me. This ship is the best example of life slapping you in the face and making you grow up and toughen up. Learn to deal with it and it will make you an experienced player like the elite you mentioned, and you'll figure out like they have, that the Corvette isn't a demon and it's fine as it is. That's why they're not changing it.

"Git gud" is not an argument. lol.

Yes, it is when you're playing wrong and you die and then you scream "nerf!! OP!!".
If experienced players don't have a problem with the corvette it probably means you're doing something wrong.

Sayonara#7054 posted (#post-119643)

If "The Corvette is a rogue" they should NOT to be so tanky.
I don't saw in any another game, how ROGUE just stay (and dont try to evade) near 2 enemies, and kill one (or two) of them. But i saw how stribog doing that. Idea of rogue=corvette is easily for understanding, but in this game it's not going true. Rogue mostly times easily died under focus of 2-3 enemies. But in this game it's not true.
And if devs rly think that corvettes dont need a nerf - we need know it.

I wasn't talking about tankvettes. I don't have much experience with them but from what i've seen and read perhaps they're indeed problematic and need some tweaking. I'm talking about people complaining about the standard T1-T3 corvette. I mean come on...

Hubris is the fool's greatest fallacy I guess. I'm not screaming for nerfs. I'm making well reasoned arguments for balance. Such as flaks on dreadnoughts being in dire need of a range and damage/mag increase. The magazine is not large enough to kill anybody, the reload time means they're gone before anything meaningful is done and the range should be at least equivalent to the corvette's engagement range.

Tank vettes are the biggest issue, above all and I suspect your lack of experience in this is where you draw this assertion that everyone -but you and a few corvette jocks- are somehow lacking in skill. Again, Hubris.


Posted: //
May 7, 2017, 11:10 a.m.


Updated //
May 7, 2017, 11:11 a.m.

I wasn't talking about you in the first place, was I? Talk about hubris..

Flak could indeed be improved but i don't think they were designed to insta-kill corvettes anyway. they're too fast and run out of your range. Combined with stasis mods though, flaks they can be quite effective. Regardless, i too would like to see flak being improved.

I'm talking about nerfs cause i've seen a lot of people talking about messing with the corvette itself.. i even read people asking for it to be made bigger and slower. Sure, one destroyer wasn't enough in the game i guess.

And no, it's not about lack of skill as much as it is lack of willingness to go out of your way and stick with your team, look around you, spot and aid your team in taking down the corvette instead of dying alone on the border of the map with no friendlies in sight. Most people will just play the way they deem is more fun and when they die they'll blame it to an OP ship, not even thinking that maybe they did something wrong.

I never said i don't lack in skill anyway, i just recognize when something that kills me can be countered or not and in my experience against them (again, not talking about tankvettes) they can be countered and if i play accordingly, i don't have a problem against vettes. If other players are doing it, why not you or him etc?


Battle is the Great Redeemer. It is the fiery crucible in which true heroes are forged. The one place where all men truly share the same rank, regardless of what kind of parasitic scum they were going in.
-Master Sergeant Farell


Posted: //
May 7, 2017, 11:38 a.m.



Alot of this, would be solved if we could queue with multiple load outs for the same ships. Bringing alot of these alleged "obvious" solutions to bare without having to roll the dice on a maybe. For example, One ship with stasis pulse/flak guns ( Assuming flaks ever actually mean anything for a dread. ) Another CQB ship with slug torps and plasma broadside. and a missile boat with tartarus/vultures. Before the shipyard update, this was possible, removing this, was a grave miscalculation and serves to exacerbate existing issues.

Each match and sometimes team composition is different. Locking an entire class of ship behind counters for one type of vessel, which may or may not be present in sufficient numbers to warrant such specialization is quite aggravating. Often to perform up to par in general purpose, loading up on these counters is just not practical. Being able to swap load outs would greatly alleviate this problem and make these "solutions" people have suggested here considerably more practical.

The fact that we cannot queue with a full team, shoehorns us into general purpose builds or forced mediocrity through specialization which has a probability of simply not being practical for the situation, If greybox won't give us the ability to queue with a proper team, then at the bare minimum, returning to us the ability to run multiple loadouts per fleet would save many of us quite alot of headache.


Posted: //
May 7, 2017, 11:58 a.m.


Updated //
May 7, 2017, noon

Speaking of flaks: dread flaks have exactly 1200 range. Which is the maximum range where vettes do significant damage.
Combine that with broads and stasis pulse and bye vette.

Destroyer flaks have less range, but are far more deadly per bullet. The one particular build I had the most troubles with was exactly T4 destroyer with Evasive Maneur. He just kited me away of 1200 m with maneur, contining to shoot mainguns. If I managed to get close anyways - he just scramble pulse and flak me in the face. Then maneur again away from my guns and shoot me with mains.

Arty flaks... well, they have better options than flaks and those are machine guns. Which have about 3.5km range and only slightly lower dps than flaks.

Speaking of tankvette... Vette tankiness may ONLY come from a single mod: Kinetic Armor Amp.
Yes it might be a little bit overtuned. But in a very specific way. Let's put it like this:

If enemy team doesn't do anything to counter it, it can be more deadly, than any other vette. Simply because how the kit works - mods like mines and OBs like Retsliator, coupled with insane energy generation allow tankvette to decimate your entire backline (arties, heals, wounded destros) with aoe explosions. In a single run.

However, if enemy actively trying to counter you, this build dies exactly as fast as others, if not faster, due to the complete lack of mobility


"Hang in there!" (™)


Posted: //
May 7, 2017, 1:01 p.m.


Updated //
May 7, 2017, 2:15 p.m.

I agree with you, lack of loadouts is a big problem, you can't know what to expect so you have to go with something that might cover various situations and if you can't change to adapt in-game, that's a problem. I think both these options (loadouts and joining as a group) will be coming soon though. Perhaps we should wait a bit more until then to see what needs fixing.


Battle is the Great Redeemer. It is the fiery crucible in which true heroes are forged. The one place where all men truly share the same rank, regardless of what kind of parasitic scum they were going in.
-Master Sergeant Farell


Posted: //
May 7, 2017, 1:39 p.m.


Updated //
May 7, 2017, 1:55 p.m.

Speaking of flaks: dread flaks have exactly 1200 range. Which is the maximum range where vettes do significant damage.
Combine that with broads and stasis pulse and bye vette.

Destroyer flaks have less range, but are far more deadly per bullet. The one particular build I had the most troubles with was exactly T4 destroyer with Evasive Maneur. He just kited me away of 1200 m with maneur, contining to shoot mainguns. If I managed to get close anyways - he just scramble pulse and flak me in the face. Then maneur again away from my guns and shoot me with mains.

Arty flaks... well, they have better options than flaks and those are machine guns. Which have about 3.5km range and only slightly lower dps than flaks.

Speaking of tankvette... Vette tankiness may ONLY come from a single mod: Kinetic Armor Amp.
Yes it might be a little bit overtuned. But in a very specific way. Let's put it like this:

If enemy team doesn't do anything to counter it, it can be more deadly, than any other vette. Simply because how the kit works - mods like mines and OBs like Retsliator, coupled with insane energy generation allow tankvette to decimate your entire backline with aoe explosions - in a single run (contrary to normal vettes, who just kill one arty and run from there asap).

However, if enemy actively trying to counter you, this build dies exactly as fast as others, if not faster, due to the complete lack of mobility. (Simply shooting at its general direction does NOT count as countering use - stasis and disrupt).


Also, I wholeheartedly agree, that ships needs multiple loadouts, available in combat. This would solve a lot of problems, not only vettes.


"Hang in there!" (™)


Posted: //
May 7, 2017, 10:14 p.m.



Same ship type with loadout variations is a great idea.

I'd be happy to have to purchase the multiple ships too. You research them once, and buy copies of them. The secondary purchases could be done at a reduced price to the originals.


Posted: //
May 10, 2017, 3:07 p.m.


Updated //
May 10, 2017, 5:01 p.m.

Aersdri#5059 posted (#post-119458)

Ermmm... so you build your entire argument on the assumption, that majority of players suffer from vettes?
And you made that assumption based on what? Your personal opinion? Amount of vette threads?

Anyways, your opinion on the matter is subjective. In other words - noone gives a flying f..ck of what you think. Same, by the way, applies to my opinion.
And that is exactly WHY I try to operate exclusively in objective facts.
Vettes not being changed in more than half year period - that's a fact, which you can't argue with, right?

So, devs not nerfing it, why? Based on their personal opinion, you think? No. As any well-educated people they operate in facts. Like match statistics, damage simulations and other stuff.
Perhaps all of them are wrong. Likely not. Time will tell.


Meanwhile, while they're thinking..

I agree, that vettes are annoying, if you do not attempt anything to counter them. Snd if your team doesn't do anything to counter them, you have to do it yourself, right?
So, tell me, did you, personally, try anything of what was suggested in this thread? Stasis, scrambe, disrupt, drain?

Seriosly, try stasis, it's amazing.

Also, the majority of experinced players don't play vettes at all. Simply because other classes are not worse (often - better), than vette. And I can guarantee, there are players good enough on any class to make you think their ships are OP.

If you don't believe me still, you can buy yourself a T4 vette and see for yourself. (Farming a T4 literally doen't take longer than a week of very lazy playing, couple of hours every evening or so).

If you think T4 will promote you to god-mode, you are mistaken.

And then - for the purity of the experiment you can try any other T4 and compare what's more OP.
(Well, of all T4, however, I'd probably wouldn't recommend Nox right now, as it"s way too weak after the last patch)

So...I was accused that my opinion is subjective. In fact when I first realized that vettes are OP I honestly thought about it. Was it just my opinion or they are truly OP? So I read some topics in here and then I had the chance to buy one and play with it for a while. In the first games I was shoot down easily, but after a while I get used to fly them and also I unlocked more powerful modules and then...WOW! I was not an experienced player and all of a sudden my KDR started to rise. My k/d ratio was like 3/3 to 5/3 with all other ships and then I managed to do like 8/2 with a t2 vette. When I started to play in veteran the vettes where there to prove to me and to all other players (I have talked about it in game...) that they are the critical ships in every battle. In fact the winning team, most of the times, is the team that has capable and experienced vettes. Now, if a team is on alert and pays attention to the vettes they can surely shoot down some of them but then the other ships have the chance to shoot and gain an advantage. So, it takes a lot of effort to destroy a well played vette.

And in order to prove that my opinion is more objective than subjective I challenge you to just read the forum...just count how many players agree with my opinion and not yours.

As for the devs...just read this from the other thread (Corvettes are too strong), posted by the developer DN_DivumVexillum

"We are actively evaluating balancing issue for all subclasses, classes, and Tiers. Your feedback is helpful, so keep it coming.

We'd also like to hear more about concerns with other classes more."

In conclusion, the majority of players (according to this forum and in game chat...) agree that vettes are causing an unbalance in this game. I wouldn't suggest to nerf them, just make the flak guns more powerful and precise or add some modules to the other ships in order to have the ability to handle them.

Finally, there can no be a fast and tanky ship....its like having a rogue with heavy armor...
And that is a logically unbalance.


Posted: //
May 11, 2017, 3:47 p.m.


Updated //
May 11, 2017, 3:49 p.m.

Alasthor#9495 posted (#post-119457)

A game is set to be balanced.
Experience just help you to understand the balance (string behind the numbers in reality) so you can play a better game against a specific enemy.

A game balance is not supposed to have anything to do with your perception, or the one of the vast majority. It's usually numbers. In the case of DN, it's more a rock-paper-scissor. But you don't seems to have found the rock, despite the numerous answer that are given by the experienced player you don't seems to like.

So here some advise to destroy Vet: they are scissor, so don't take paper, then complain that you are destroyed (translated: avoid artillery ship.)
Try Flak on pretty much any ship, all cattaro like ship, stasis or scrambler module of any kind and finally the big point that have nothing to do with the nature of the ship/armament: have a constant perception of your environment.

Vet are tiny, not easy ship to aim, but easily destroyed by even a single ship. If you cut them from there mobility they are done, if you blind them or lock there ability at the right moment (generally in there approach phase), they are done.

It's just a bit harder to understand for Vet, but it's the same for all ship, like: "hide if there is artillery, don't focus the big Dread if they are using there armour module, kill the healer ship whenever you can..." and so on.

And all of this is not about being elite...
Now to go in the same way of the OP, lately the changes seems to favor Vet, but it's all because Cattaro-like ship are really unusual and are a pain to get with the 2.0 system. Not to say they are too specialised to worse the expense of money. So Vet got good time...

Well played vettes cannot be destroyed easily mate! Flak guns do nothing, stasis missiles are avoided most of the times, other modules are not effective enough and it takes the effort of almost the whole team to shot down an experienced vette player. Most of the times a well played vette is doing 12-14 kills with minimum effort and the tankvettes are just there to destroy everything in the battlefield! Even dreads!
Also if the triptych power-speed-firepower is what the devs have in mind in order to design the ships then the tankvettes have all the above! They have armor modules, they are faster than other ships and their guns can destroy anything real fast.
If the vettes are equal to a rogue then they should not have any armor at all! Its that simple. Have you ever seen a rogue wearing heavy armor?

Aersdri#5059 posted (#post-119458)

Ermmm... so you build your entire argument on the assumption, that majority of players suffer from vettes?
And you made that assumption based on what? Your personal opinion? Amount of vette threads?

Anyways, your opinion on the matter is subjective. In other words - noone gives a flying f..ck of what you think. Same, by the way, applies to my opinion.
And that is exactly WHY I try to operate exclusively in objective facts.
Vettes not being changed in more than half year period - that's a fact, which you can't argue with, right?

So, devs not nerfing it, why? Based on their personal opinion, you think? No. As any well-educated people they operate in facts. Like match statistics, damage simulations and other stuff.
Perhaps all of them are wrong. Likely not. Time will tell.


Meanwhile, while they're thinking..

I agree, that vettes are annoying, if you do not attempt anything to counter them. Snd if your team doesn't do anything to counter them, you have to do it yourself, right?
So, tell me, did you, personally, try anything of what was suggested in this thread? Stasis, scrambe, disrupt, drain?

Seriosly, try stasis, it's amazing.

Also, the majority of experinced players don't play vettes at all. Simply because other classes are not worse (often - better), than vette. And I can guarantee, there are players good enough on any class to make you think their ships are OP.

If you don't believe me still, you can buy yourself a T4 vette and see for yourself. (Farming a T4 literally doen't take longer than a week of very lazy playing, couple of hours every evening or so).

If you think T4 will promote you to god-mode, you are mistaken.

And then - for the purity of the experiment you can try any other T4 and compare what's more OP.
(Well, of all T4, however, I'd probably wouldn't recommend Nox right now, as it"s way too weak after the last patch)

I must admit that when I first thought that the vettes are OP, I also thought that my opinion is probably subjective because I was not that experienced. Also after a few days I bought my first T2 vette and my KDR started to rise. Before the vette I had 4/4 or 6/3 k/d and with the vette I could do 8/2 or even 10/1 k/d. Then I started to read the forum and realized that my opinion is also the opinion of many others and that the majority of players (experienced or not..) agree with the opinion that vettes are a little bit OP. Just read the forum. So I still think that this opinion is more objective than subjective.

As for the devs...just read this written by DN_DivumVexillum taken from another thread about OP vettes:

"We are actively evaluating balancing issue for all subclasses, classes, and Tiers. Your feedback is helpful, so keep it coming.

We'd also like to hear more about concerns with other classes more."

In conclusion, in my opinion the vettes can be handled if more than two (proper) ships go against them. I would not say that they must be nerfed but the devs should add more power, range and accuracy to flak guns or other counter-modules of the other classes.

The latest update is coming in a few hours...so lets see...

Cheers.


Posted: //
May 12, 2017, 3:37 a.m.



"Well played vettes cannot be destroyed" - exactly. They are so much OP that most of the corvette players don't even bother to play well, they just stop behind you and use all modules. If you have a certain ship with anti-vette weapons (most of the ships don't have it), you have a chance to kill him, but if he plays properly, he is invincible.

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