FORUMS


Tiers have to change



Posted: //
Jan. 25, 2017, 3:32 p.m.


Updated //
Jan. 26, 2017, 6:15 a.m.

So my last Thread went down pretty quickly, probably because of the massive posts about server outages again .. So I'm posting this again, but a little different.

Many of us know about obliviondolls Poll, and I actually voted for the middle path; creating a new system. But my mind has changed over time... because I know thats not going to happen. Instead I say "Attempt to tweak numbers to make progression 2.0 work."
So obliviondoll if you're reading this pls change 1 vote to Tweak Numbers smile

But I still HATE the tier system as it is right now

This is Topic mainly about Tiers wich is IMO the biggest problem with DN at its current state
I'm gonna take the Jupiter Arms Medium Destroyer as an example throughout this post.
Also I'll take the Tempest Missiles, Beam Amplifier and the Siege Mode as Module Examples

My experience with Dreadnought post progression update was like this:

The balance between Tiers is way off.

I started like everyone else with Tier 1. The start of recruit Fleet.

For some reason there are only Destroyers Medics and Snipers. And if the Matchmaker wouldn't let Tier 2 players be in the same match there would be absolutely no counter against snipers. But then again whenever there are Tier 2 ships, the Tier 1's are getting obliterated; especially by Corvettes... Great fun for beginners.

Sidenote: I recently heard from the Roundtable on discord that they might change the buggy Aim Assist when right clicking to be optional. I'm pretty sure this is gonna make hitting corvettes a lot easier. We actually get something positive once. yay

Ship Example:

Tier 1 Agosta
- Health 17000
- Energy 55%

Tier 1 Modules
- Tempest Missiles - 10050 DMG - 70 s Cooldown
- Beam Amplifier - 45% DMG - 90% HEAL - 50 sec Cooldown
- Siege Mode - 12000 DMG - 70 sec

4 Different Modules available at Tier 1

wich is fine I guess. I mean its Tier 1


Then you get to Tier 2.

Kinda balanced if MM works. If you're playing against Veterans you're screwed. Tier 1 don't stand a chance against you... what am I talking about.. kinda balanced? No its not

Tier 2 Trafalgar
- Health 21000
- Energy 65%

Modules

- Tempest Missiles - 11000 DMG - 65s Cooldown
- Beam Amplifier - 60% DMG - 120% HEAL - 45 sec Cooldown
- Siege Mode - 13000 DMG - 65 sec

8 Different Modules to choose here ...

Now comes the stupid part

Tier 3.
I personally don't want to play Tier 3. Once again you are getting stomped by higher Tiers, and if you're lucky to play against Tier 2's you are once again stomping everyone - unless you're in a dola then you could basicly play Tier 1 again ... (jk, its bad but not that bad).

Tier 3 Otranto
- Health 25500
- Energy 80%

Modules
- Tempest Missiles - 13500 DMG - 60s Cooldown
- Beam Amplifier - 70% DMG - 150% HEAL - 43 sec Cooldown
- Siege Mode - 16000 DMG - 62 sec

12-13 Modules on This Tier to choose from

Then you reach Tier 4 and the game gets so unbelievably boring because someone at Yager decided to make ships SLOWER with each Tier. WHY???
Playing Tier 4 is boring, barely playable.
Also -- Maintenance costs.
I actually never got to Tier 4, I only played the hero ships and even the faster hero ships are extremely slow. The game right now is just too frustrating to play to Tier 4.

Tier 4 Vigo
- Health 30000
- Energy 100%

Modules
- Tempest Missiles - 16800 DMG - 50s Cooldown
- Beam Amplifier - 85% DMG - 175% HEAL - 45 sec Cooldown (goes up for some reason)
- Siege Mode - 20000 DMG - 60 sec

~27 Modules ... From 12/13 Modules on Tier 3 to 27 Modules on Tier 4

and the best thing is:

Tier 5 has the same ~27 Modules, just upgrades.

Once Again ships become even slower for some reason.

Tier 5 Athos
- Health 32500
- Energy 125% ...

Modules
- Tempest Missiles - 2150 DMG - 45s Cooldown
- Beam Amplifier - 100% DMG - 200% HEAL - 4 sec Cooldown (goes down again)
- Siege Mode - 24000 DMG - 55 sec


What I'm basicly saying is, Tweak the numbers drasticly.

Tier 1 Ships should not have 55% Energy. They should have 100% like everyone else.
Tier 1 Ships should not have ~60% health of the same Tier 5 version, they should have AT LEAST 80% or more.
Speed should stay the same for all the Tiers, or get faster slightly with each Tier, NOT SLOWER.

Some Modules are incredibly useless at lower Tiers.
These differences should'nt be much more than 80% but right now they have less than half of power/effectiveness than the Tier 5 ones.
Some Module sare especially odd, like Dreadnough Warp module being unable to warp to a target until Tier 4 or Tier 1/2 Anti Missiles lasers being unable to shoot down missiles most of the time.
Tier 2 Bomb Catapult does 19500 DMG with 70 seconds cooldown. The Tier 5 version of that does 36000 DMG with 55 sec cooldown.... so many more examples .. some of these Numbers are just ridiculous.
Tiers don't need a lot of difference in Numbers, they already have more options when it comes to modules.
So ... yeah I'm fine with tweaking numbers. But it needs some big tweaks.


Blue Vengeance - Deutscher Multigaming Casual Clan


Posted: //
Jan. 25, 2017, 4 p.m.



I don't think you understand the purpose of the progression system. The idea is to have a notable improvement in performance over the tiers to grant the feeling of progress and, you know, improvement. Also, the difference between T1/T2, while noticeable, is nowhere near the differences between early tiers of other games (WoT, War Thunder) and even if it were as major as you seem to think it is, you can literally get from T-1 to T-2 in between 3-10 games. And 10 is if you die repeatedly without ever getting a kill, ever. I actually felt quite powerful right out of the gate with T1 ships, much more so than I did in Tanks or War Thunder. Also, ships get slower because modules, weapons, and armour become more powerful and, likely, heavier. Not that realism is the hugest concern ever in this game but it's pretty fair to assume that a heavier variant of a ship that has the exact same propulsion system would be slower.

Also, you say T4 is "boring and barely playable" solely because ships are too slow. Note that pretty much every class of ship has mobility modules available and by that tier they are pretty powerful. So if the speed such a problem, then that's on you for not playing to compensate for that. Also, you gain a significant increase in literally every other metric of not only your ship, but every possible module you can put on it so if you ALSO got faster, then you'd be flat out SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than a ship even one tier below you. The slower speed also encourages tactical team play as opposed to early tier which focuses more on individual skill, as those players can't be honestly expected to know exactly how to work cohesively together.

Finally, there's the modules. There are limited choices of early tier modules for several reasons. One, it helps new players understand the core mechanics of the game before having to worry about module synergy and tweaking of individual playstyle. Two, it makes the game simply more predictable and understandable for early players. And three, it gives the most significant feeling of progression of all as it opens up significant customization options down the line, almost all of it (fairly) well balanced such that no playstyle is objectively "better" than another, leaving the decision purely to your preference.

Now obviously the progression system isn't perfect but it's also VERY new and will improve in the time to come. The numbers aren't perfect but for such a new system I think they are a very good start.


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Posted: //
Jan. 25, 2017, 4:44 p.m.


Updated //
Jan. 25, 2017, 4:56 p.m.


Posted: //
Jan. 25, 2017, 5:24 p.m.



Little Miss Sunshine#7845 posted (#post-98579)

I don't think you understand the purpose of the progression system. The idea is to have a notable improvement in performance over the tiers to grant the feeling of progress and, you know, improvement. Also, the difference between T1/T2, while noticeable, is nowhere near the differences between early tiers of other games (WoT, War Thunder) ...

You know that nobody like the WoT/War Thunder system, right?


Blue Vengeance - Deutscher Multigaming Casual Clan


Posted: //
Jan. 25, 2017, 5:36 p.m.



But I also know that they are incredibly successful games because a lot of people DO like them and because the tiering system, though annoying to a lot of people, is a successful means of making a profit in this style of game. The progression is but one aspect of the game; the much bigger part is actual gameplay, and to my experience Dreadnought has much more enjoyable gameplay than WoT. Also note that I played both Tanks and War Thunder for a LONG time (I still do play War Thunder on occasion- it is a good game) and that I am a skilled player in all three of these games. I'm not just some noob trying to shout the loudest.


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Posted: //
Jan. 25, 2017, 5:52 p.m.


Updated //
Jan. 25, 2017, 5:54 p.m.

Both of these games are fine, don't get me wrong .. well maybe WoT not so much ^^
The gameplay is good and fun for a lot of people.
Its just the Progression and Tiering System thats hated, and a lot of people were happy that Dreadnought didn't go down that path. But then they did with progression 2.0 and people have been raging ever since, and when they announced it people already started to complain.
Its just a seemingly endless grind with no real change in gameplay.

The Problem with this type of Progression is that you're always getting your a** kicked by Higher Tiers and you do the same to lower Tiers. This happens both in WoT and WarThunder and it sucks. Matchmaking is rarely good even in those highly populated games...

In dreadnought its just weird because ... Tier 1-3 seem to have no purpose. Its not just not fun playing these.

The game really starts with Tier 4 when suddenly every Module is available for research.
Tier 4 is almost like Pre Progression 2.0, but only you have to grind through Tiers for every ship to reach it.


Blue Vengeance - Deutscher Multigaming Casual Clan


Posted: //
Jan. 25, 2017, 6:06 p.m.



I personally enjoyed the game right from the get go- early tiers are much more fun than in those other games. And while I get that grinding is tedious and frustrating at times (I certainly don't love grinding itself), this was a business decision. They need to make money, and this was the path they chose to do so. I think it makes sense and that, so far, they're doing a pretty good job of it. It's obviously not perfect, but it's also very new and still subject to changes and improvements which will no doubt come.

Basically, it needs to be given time and constructive feedback, and yours is obviously constructive, I just happen to disagree with some of the content. But that's what these forums are for, after all. I think that right now the biggest issue is credit income (which I talked about in another forum just now), as game balance and progression seems pretty good to me for now. Again, not perfect, but pretty good. I could agree with moving some modules to T3, though, as the disparity between T3 and T4 is pretty significant right now. T1 and 2 I have no issues with, and T5 I have no experience with.


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Posted: //
Jan. 26, 2017, 3:16 a.m.



I Play world of warships since the closed beta and I have to say i dont see the grind aso. as much as a Problem. I think u can get to t4 rather quickly in dreadnought.
Also i dont have as much problems with my t3 Jupiter destroyer to fight t4. Of course u have to manover more and do less dmg to him but its not like u wont do any dmg at all.
In case of the maintenance costs i wondered a bit why there is so much talking cause its to expensive aso.
Again compaired to warships its peanuts what und have to pay in dreadnought. The upper Tier classes are Not supposed to be moneyships in any Game so its ok for me.
Maybe the hate comes from people who never played games related to dreadnought and just dont know whats behind the maintenance costs.

Sry for writing mistakes, my cell Phone dont likes english😀


Posted: //
Jan. 26, 2017, 5:23 a.m.



Little Miss Sunshine#7845 posted (#post-98614)

But I also know that they are incredibly successful games because a lot of people DO like them and because the tiering system, though annoying to a lot of people, is a successful means of making a profit in this style of game.

In the entire gaming industry, it's possible to count the number of successful games using that model on one hand.

Literally.

On the flipside, there are HUNDREDS of games which attempt to use those same systems and EVERY ONE OF THEM FAILS. Why? Because they didn't get to build with a very, VERY rare and very specific set of exceptions which allow those extremely few games to circumvent the usual rule about how these systems behave. Much like the hundreds of FAILURES out there, Dreadnought has absolutely zero in the way of options to reproduce the situation supporting the exceptions to the rule.

If you want to see actually SUCCESSFUL free-to-play models, look at games like League of Legends (which on its own has a larger playerbase than Wargaming's entire library and War Thunder put together), or every other successful MOBA-like game in the history of forever. Cosmetic purchases, no tier system, no maintenance fees. Also TF2 and other "hero shooters", many of which also have enormous communities that make your examples look like little fish in shark-infested waters.

YES, having "grind" is a key element - and having monetised ways to accelerate the grind is awesome too. But they DON'T give players linear game-changing upgrades to fight with. Tier systems are absolutely proven, by industry example AND by market research, to consistently and reliably NOR WORK AT ALL in almost all cases. A while back I proposed a system where they could do the exact OPPOSITE and have an inverted tier pyramid - starting players with the t5 ships and let them work their way down, but give accelerating rewards for using the weaker gear. I still say that would have been a better option than what we got.


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Posted: //
Jan. 26, 2017, 6:14 a.m.



Dude u compare dreadnought with a moba which is pretty nonsense. Second from where u wanna know those "hundrets of games" werent succesful cause of the Tier System? U can t compare low Budget games with games like dreadnought just to strengthen your Argument. Most low Budget games die anyway. And there are many games with a high budget using this Tier system or something similar in this Type of game.
Sure it isnt perfect yet but its still a freaking closed beta so give things a bit time

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