Just say NO to tiers!

Posted: //
July 14, 2016, 7:52 a.m.

Updated //
July 14, 2016, 8:03 a.m.

No. Definitely no. There's enough grind and enough of a power gap between players already. I hate the World of Tanks/Warships progression, hence I'm playing this instead. If they inplement WoT/WS progression they'll never see another cent from me and if possible I'll try to get a refund for what I already spent. If I wanted to play those games I would be. Bait and switches like this aren't cool.

Posted: //
July 14, 2016, 9:33 a.m.


on the one hand i see merit in the concerns mentioned
on the other hand though...

let's start with a clean slate:
A.1 basic starter lvl, both the ship and the captain (i.e. noob status)
A.2 experienced starter lvl, the ship is basic, but experienced captain;
you are now winning 8 out of 10 matches, purely on XP, cause you still use the same ships the noobs do,
but know better how the manoeuvre those ships.

B.1 upgraded ship lvl, which handles totally different from the basic one, slower because of more armor or
whatever, it may look the same, but it isn't, meaning you have to learn the stuff all over again,
being the noob, again, but in the new hardware lvl
B.2 same progression model as with A

C ditto for next hardware lvl

Now, a couple tweaks to the above list:
B.1 you match with both B and A pool you are so strong, you could oneshot an A, if you could catch him,
but chances of that are, well, small, since you're a noob in handling the new capabilities of your own
better upgraded ship and are therefor easy meat for the more experienced B level oponent.
(and these are two entirely different match conditions, no B.2 will ever see an A.1 in that same match)

B.2 you match with B pool and C pool and the whole story starts again, you outclass the B,
but are fresh meat to the C.1's

only when you went through the learning curve all the way up to the final class, you can play every level as
an experienced player, in the class conform ship!

Which means, in a few months or so not every B.1 player you encounter, is easy meat for you B.2's,
not even every B.2 is going to be easy meat for the C.1, because the player behind the wheel knows exactly
what the strenghts and weaknesses are of both his own ship and his opponent's.

Now, i have no clue how to throw this into a moneymaking setup, but as a player model, I believe it does have a
reasonably well equalized setup for everyone to enjoy and have a chance at winning a match on every level they participate? got killed?
go walk it off...

Posted: //
July 14, 2016, 1:27 p.m.

Tiers do not fight one another. Well not all of them. Example... a Tier 1 will never fight a Tier 5. Ever. Now 4s may mix with 5s... but 3s will not.

They've divided the hopper into 3. So technically at any given time three styles of dreadnought are being played. A simpler faster one at T1. A game a bit more advanced and slightly slower at T2/T3 and finally very advanced and slow at T4/T5.

I'm not defending this system at all... just trying to explain it as I understood it. Which basically means that no. There are not 50 potential variants at any given time on the battle field. It's still the same 15 ships divided up across 3 modes. They just happen to perform and look different per tier.

Which to me is an absolute waste of resources. All those beautiful ships... and some we'll hardly ever see the battlefield.

I was briefly excited as I thought they were saying Tier 1 was a light version of a ship and T5 was a heavy. So in that way we'd really have a TON of ships to choose from. Sadly this was not the case.

It seems needlessly overcomplicated to try and keep track of 3 different styles of play... and then all the myriad of different fleet comps that would/could work across all 3 tier groupings.

All that said... I'm willing to try it of course. I'm pretty sure I understand how all this works to begin with and I'm not a fan but perhaps in practice it'll somehow work.

Posted: //
July 14, 2016, 2:45 p.m.

Tiers are awful. Straight upgrades are awful. If I wanted to play World of Tanks, War Thunder, or World of Warships, I would play those games - and most of us probably do.

I want to actually play the game, not grind so I can play it later.

Posted: //
July 14, 2016, 2:49 p.m.

Updated //
July 14, 2016, 3:30 p.m.

Mistaken double post. Please delete. (Sorry!)

Posted: //
July 14, 2016, 3:38 p.m.

Updated //
July 14, 2016, 3:55 p.m.

I really don't mind XP grinds, but the queue times are terrible enough already. A friend and I both queued at the same time (not in a squad because that seems absolutely broken), within 4 Captain levels of each other. We waited 7 minutes then both got a game at the exact same time...but guess what? We were in two different games. So there were essentially 18 people sitting in a queue with no games starting.

Not sure why you would want to implement something that would increase queue times even more when they're already horrid. Hopefully something is done about the system. My RL buddy has about an hour to play games every second night, and we have quit playing Dreadnought because more often than not we sit in a queue for over 10 minutes if we squad up, and if we don't we're generally on opposing teams...or like I stated earlier not even getting into the same games even though they're popping at the same time.

TL;DR - We don't need longer queues.

Posted: //
July 14, 2016, 5:08 p.m.

Hi Fred! Currently we have a limited player base by design. Once we move towards 2.0 and open beta. You will see more players in the game. Which will mean more players in each tier.

Posted: //
July 14, 2016, 5:17 p.m.

SpaceWolf#0734 posted (#post-40465)

When I first time saw progression tree and you mentioned that there will be around 50 ships to play with I was hyped. But then I realized that we will be able to choose only from 5 ships of each manufactury at tier 5. So yeah...
I was actually hoping there will be some kind of specialization for each class. You know allow us to choose if we want our ship to be more offensive, defensive, supportive and so. Or choose hybrids between classes. That would be so cool. But now I feel like the only thing that has changed are restrictions.

We all know that matchmaking system needed some improvements especially for sorting people by their rank. But tier system doesn't seems to me as a good solution.
First of all I don't like different power levels for different ship tiers. Sooner or later you will be playing game with 5 players T4 vs. 5 players T5 and so. I would much rather see different ships with their own advantages and disadvantages. And all modules to be at similar level to provide meaningful choice. Scalling up hull bar and damage seems to me completely unneccessary and confusing. I would rather therycraft builds around constant numbers!
Next thing is when you want to play with your favorite T5 ship and you will be playing with your friend who only unlocked T2. You will be forced to play T2-T3 ships. GG.

I like progression in this game and unlocking new ships, modules or cosmetic parts is definitively a thing. I wouldn't mind if it will be represented as tree with different branches. But forcing players to play with ships on different power levels is wrong. Honeslty I've been playing so many action RPG so I can tell that power scalling is unneccessary evil. I guess it has some kind of psychological effect on childrens. smile

The last thing is repair cost. When you lost the match you already gain only half of FP. So loosing match will be even more punishing. It's not a big deal but I can imagine it will cause more frustration when playing in public party against pre-made parties or just better fleets few times in a row.

Right now I have really mixed feelings about this change. We will see.
Apologies for my english.

EXACTLY my thoughts, couldn't have said it better, I would LOVE the tech trees themselves, so you can choose what to get to some extend, but with the ships not being tiered, but just different some being faster, but have more armor, and different main guns like the current ships we got right now etc.

Also I actually this will make some of our current problems WORSE, as they mentioned that evne if you are a t5 player you can still jump down in a t1 ship and play that, so essentially we will have ppl(probably whole teams) purposefully fight newbies that are very expereiences and thus will get owned, not like now where they get matched with lowbies simply because of a lack of players (something the release and evne open beta should fix for the most part bu just brining a lot more players into the calculations)

Malimar#4067 posted (#post-40475)


PLEASE watch the livestream then come back here, what you are describing is the current situation, and not at all how it will work after progression 2.0 if they keep doing what they are planning

Posted: //
July 15, 2016, 5:53 a.m.

Updated //
July 15, 2016, 5:55 a.m.

Draex#3006 posted (#post-40550)

Hi Fred! Currently we have a limited player base by design. Once we move towards 2.0 and open beta. You will see more players in the game. Which will mean more players in each tier.

But the distribution will not be uniform across all tiers, and that's the problem. If we assume all players will eventually hit the top tier, new players will only encounter other new players (I ignore the statement here that you still can play in lower tiers - honestly, who would do that?). Which may lead to a vicious circle: new players see high matchmaking times, drop out, thereby increasing matchmaking times for the next one.

This is a problem faced by many MMORPGs after the gold rush phase. Star Trek Online, for example, has optional, tiered PVP arenas. You will see literally no one in the lower tiers there. But there is a big difference: In MMORPGs leveling is PvE, so a player can eventually reach the top tier in constant time and start playing PvP with a larger base. But unless the Dreadnought campaign rewards you XP till you reach top tier, you will hit a progression barrier as a new player.

Will Bay One flame trench ever be cleared?

Posted: //
July 15, 2016, 9:24 a.m.

I'm a avid War Thunder player. Steam tells me I have around 340 hours put into the game, being one of the most played games in my library.

During these hours, I managed to reach tier 4 with the luftwaffe, never really playing any other nation because I actually wanted to get better planes, so starting over wasn't that appealing to me.
Now comes the question how appearent this problem is going to be with the diffrent manufactures in Dreadnought.

Q. Are my fleets locked to one manufacturer like in War Thunder? I hope I'm not restricted in the choice of my fleet.

Regardless of that I think we just have to accpet the fact that a Tier system is a necessity in a F2P. Sure a lot of people say they'll leave saying that they can't stand another Tier based progression system and the fact that it was implemented later rather then being so from the start will make people feel screwed over, but...

without such a system people who want to play the game and, specifically, want to progress have a lower incentive to spend money (since there would be less progression to bypass), thus leave the developers without the finances to further support the game and the people who enjoy it. The same goes for the fleet repair they mention. Essentially putting a -15% credit debuff on the player is supposed to make you pay up.

And that just has to be accepted. A Free to play is not free to make and any F2P developer who doesn't make his players want to spend money is just bad at business. As sad as some of you think that is, it's the truth.

Now, Balance is a complete other topic. I got smoked plenty of times in War Thunder by a Königstiger or by a 262 jet fighter while i was still in a lower tier vehicle.

One thing I saw in the stream was that later Tier ships have a lot more options in modules.

Q. So why not just throw out the stat increase between the tiers and just up the options a player has, like it appears you have already integrated. Does the higher tiered player really need boosted damage/armour/whatever if he can, say, access Purge Nukes or the blast ram which I cannot? I mean, this is right now already mostly the case with late game modules locked behind level 40+.

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