FORUMS


Just say NO to tiers!



Posted: //
July 17, 2016, 4:28 p.m.


Updated //
July 17, 2016, 4:29 p.m.

Malakie#8905 posted (#post-40811)

For those against a tiered system, I have ONE question..

How do you expect new players and lesser ships and stats to compete again those older experienced ships and players then?

You want to complain about a tier system but offer no solution to that dilemna.. Without some kind of system in place, explain YOUR solution to the problem because I would love to hear it.

Match-making, just like every other competitive game does it.

Months down the road when you have all your experience and beefed up ships, what is going to keep young new players from joining when all they end up being is fodder for you to laugh in glee because you have all the power?

Funny that you don't see the irony of what you're saying. Those beefed up ships you are afraid of only exist under a tiered system. What we want instead is horizontal progression so nobody can beef up anything and the only thing holding a new player back from dominating may be lack of experience.

Instead, under the tiered system you like we will indeed be in beefed up ships and one of two things will happen: Either we veterans farm new players to cover repair costs, or we all stay in tier 5 and the new players will have nobody to play with. Talking about the veterans that will actually stick around for that. Either way it's lose lose for new players.


My Dreadnought tools and resources: Dreadnought Datamine | Snib's Dreadnought Steam Launcher | Hangar background noise remover


Posted: //
July 17, 2016, 4:32 p.m.



Snib#1627 posted (#post-40813)

Malakie#8905 posted (#post-40811)

For those against a tiered system, I have ONE question..

How do you expect new players and lesser ships and stats to compete again those older experienced ships and players then?

You want to complain about a tier system but offer no solution to that dilemna.. Without some kind of system in place, explain YOUR solution to the problem because I would love to hear it.

Match-making, just like every competitive game does it.

Months down the road when you have all your experience and beefed up ships, what is going to keep young new players from joining when all they end up being is fodder for you to laugh in glee because you have all the power?

Funny that you don't see the irony of what you're saying. Those beefed up ships you are afraid of only exist under a tiered system. What we want instead is horizontal progression so nobody can beef up anything and the only thing holding a new player back from dominating may be lack of experience.

Instead, under the tiered system you like we will indeed be in beefed up ships and one of two things will happen: Either we veterans farm new players to cover repair costs, or we all stay in tier 5 and the new players will have nobody to play with. Talking about the veterans that will actually stick around for that. Either way it's lose lose for new players.

That is why I asked the question.. Veteran players are going to be able to have their will against new players in a non-tiered system right? How do you think it should be so that does not happen? Safe zones? Areas that new players can fight and learn before running into veteran players? What?

Without a tiered system, HOW do you suggest the problem be solved. That is the essence of the question I asked.

I understand the ramifications of a tiered system.. I am not into tiering things either.. BUT I am also not one to complain without a solution when I do... and in this game, I am not sure I see a solution... nor do the devs..


Take it light...


Posted: //
July 17, 2016, 4:40 p.m.



As I said, match-making, i.e. building a team and finding its match. That involves performance rating of players of some sort, and how closely you want to match people comes down to size of the player base and acceptable waiting times but in the ideal world with enough players you could match newbies with newbies only and veterans with veterans. In the much more likely scenario of not enough players you'll have to widen the brackets.


My Dreadnought tools and resources: Dreadnought Datamine | Snib's Dreadnought Steam Launcher | Hangar background noise remover


Posted: //
July 17, 2016, 7:04 p.m.



Malakie#8905 posted (#post-40811)

For those against a tiered system, I have ONE question..

How do you expect new players and lesser ships and stats to compete again those older experienced ships and players then?

You want to complain about a tier system but offer no solution to that dilemna.. Without some kind of system in place, explain YOUR solution to the problem because I would love to hear it.

Months down the road when you have all your experience and beefed up ships, what is going to keep young new players from joining when all they end up being is fodder for you to laugh in glee because you have all the power?

A properly tuned matchmaking algorithm negates any need for a tiered system. Players are then simply matched with other players of similar skill. Tiered systems like this are typically common in free to play games because they can easily turn it into a strong incentive program to buy a carrot on stick item. Example: you reach a new tier but suddenly find that your not even close to affording one of those shiny new ships BUT you can have it now if you spend real money to buy some premium gold space credits.

Many of us do not like the F2P model since it throws a lot of the competitive aspect of the game out the window in favor of begging you to open your wallet and buy a premium item. Horizontal progression systems are superior when it comes to competitive and balanced gameplay.


Posted: //
July 17, 2016, 8:28 p.m.



WarViper1337#8868 posted (#post-40823)

Malakie#8905 posted (#post-40811)

For those against a tiered system, I have ONE question..

How do you expect new players and lesser ships and stats to compete again those older experienced ships and players then?

You want to complain about a tier system but offer no solution to that dilemna.. Without some kind of system in place, explain YOUR solution to the problem because I would love to hear it.

Months down the road when you have all your experience and beefed up ships, what is going to keep young new players from joining when all they end up being is fodder for you to laugh in glee because you have all the power?

A properly tuned matchmaking algorithm negates any need for a tiered system. Players are then simply matched with other players of similar skill. Tiered systems like this are typically common in free to play games because they can easily turn it into a strong incentive program to buy a carrot on stick item. Example: you reach a new tier but suddenly find that your not even close to affording one of those shiny new ships BUT you can have it now if you spend real money to buy some premium gold space credits.

Many of us do not like the F2P model since it throws a lot of the competitive aspect of the game out the window in favor of begging you to open your wallet and buy a premium item. Horizontal progression systems are superior when it comes to competitive and balanced gameplay.

I agree about the tier system... I also do not like F2P nor Pay to win.

With a game like this, just not sure how to make it work to bring in and keep players.


Take it light...


Posted: //
July 18, 2016, 4:15 a.m.


Updated //
July 18, 2016, 4:16 a.m.

Malakie#8905 posted (#post-40824)

WarViper1337#8868 posted (#post-40823)

Malakie#8905 posted (#post-40811)

For those against a tiered system, I have ONE question..

How do you expect new players and lesser ships and stats to compete again those older experienced ships and players then?

You want to complain about a tier system but offer no solution to that dilemna.. Without some kind of system in place, explain YOUR solution to the problem because I would love to hear it.

Months down the road when you have all your experience and beefed up ships, what is going to keep young new players from joining when all they end up being is fodder for you to laugh in glee because you have all the power?

A properly tuned matchmaking algorithm negates any need for a tiered system. Players are then simply matched with other players of similar skill. Tiered systems like this are typically common in free to play games because they can easily turn it into a strong incentive program to buy a carrot on stick item. Example: you reach a new tier but suddenly find that your not even close to affording one of those shiny new ships BUT you can have it now if you spend real money to buy some premium gold space credits.

Many of us do not like the F2P model since it throws a lot of the competitive aspect of the game out the window in favor of begging you to open your wallet and buy a premium item. Horizontal progression systems are superior when it comes to competitive and balanced gameplay.

I agree about the tier system... I also do not like F2P nor Pay to win.

With a game like this, just not sure how to make it work to bring in and keep players.

With proper matchmaking evne if the game fails to find 10 players of equal experiance it can balance out the team in the match by having say 1 lowlvl on each team, 2 midlvl players and 2 high lvl players, and that way each team should have a roughly equal chance of winning, and on top of that the low and midlvl players might even learn a thing from such a map from playing both with and against the highlvls without just being roflstomped because of onesided teams (and I suspect actually the current matchmaking giving a bigger pool of players is pretty close to this actually) Proper matchmkaing beat any kind of tier system anyday


Posted: //
July 18, 2016, 5:13 a.m.



chryseusAquila#3803 posted (#post-40622)

Tier system is a necessity in a F2P.


"The First Of His Name"


Posted: //
July 18, 2016, 10:18 a.m.



Lets try something strange, be naive and believe the developers for a moment. If you watched the stream and listened to the explanation of the introduction of tiers there are two reasons why they went with this idea.

One beeing that many players stated in the surveys that they liked unlocking new ships, this may be a misunderstanding of the rather general questions and wording of those surveys. In hindsight a following focused survey to clarify this would have been better, at least considering the forum posts following the stream.

The second one beeing that they could not balance the game in a way that there was meaningful horizontal progression and no power creep that would outclass new players. Matchmaking could only solve this partially, because the moment you squad up with a friend that is new to the game either you will be matched against new players or he will be matched against veteran players, both situations will annoy someone.

Added on this the change of gameplay through tiers is a pretty neat concept to cater to more players, from an arcade version with fast matches and more twitchy gameplay up to hardcore tactical play with slower ships that have a lot more options module wise. Peter noted that they felt the Corvettes are to strong against new players and to weak in the lategame, thus with the tiers they can buff them to be a suitable choice again.

The tiers are power creep, cheap content, they reduce the impact of some matchmaking problems and could be Dreadnoughts version of hardcore and vanilla servers/gamemodes.


Of course, they could just be an annoying amount of grind like most of you fear, but seeing the amount of time they put into them, we can only prevent them from getting into release/open beta, they will be here anyway. As a developer I would note these concerns, but only act if they still get voiced after the new system got launched and tested for some time.

If you quit the moment this gets live, you will not change anything, you need to test it and give your feedback again and again for some time. You can of course reduce the amount of money you put into it and eveen time, but we/you lost the battle only if the game launches with it, until then the decision is open.


Recruit Engineer


Posted: //
July 18, 2016, 12:11 p.m.


Updated //
July 18, 2016, 12:12 p.m.


Posted: //
July 18, 2016, 1:17 p.m.



It's a bit naive to think that feedback could change anything about this, it's too costly to develop (both in time and money) to do a 180° after you implemented it unless your player numbers tank and you have no choice.

In a way they've changed the target demographic though, many of the people who liked this game because of its horizontal progression will be out, remains to be seen who comes in.


My Dreadnought tools and resources: Dreadnought Datamine | Snib's Dreadnought Steam Launcher | Hangar background noise remover

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