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Now available: Dev Talk #1 - Progression 2.0 (and the new guy introduces himself)



Posted: //
Aug. 21, 2016, 12:13 p.m.



Mako109#2699 posted (#post-42886)

@Jawayne

I can only ever speak from my own experience in the Corvette, and really, it's never been much of an issue for me. While utilizing the 5-second Blink Warp properly, Afterburner, and the Bolt Driver, there's nothing the enemy can really do to deal with you fast enough. Seriously, at 4km range on the Bolt Driver with no damage falloff makes all the difference, letting you deal some real respectable damage from a distance. Just plinking away at the enemy from cover while they are grouped, yet out of range of any instakill techniques, makes all the difference, and lets you wait for an opportunity to strike that otherwise wouldn't exist.

The whole point of the Corvette is high damage, low health, and you're supposed to play around with that fact. It'd be stupid if the medium and light Corvette's had the health of, say, a tac cruiser while still having the speed they currently do.

The healing drone of a tactical will negate all damage you do with a Bolt Gun. Your whole ship gets negated by one module.


Recruit Engineer


Posted: //
Aug. 21, 2016, 3:06 p.m.



@Jawayne

There's more to this game than DPS numbers or kills. With the Bolt Driver, the enemy now knows of your presence, and is presented with two options: leave it be, or send someone to deal with it. In case 1, they now run the risk of sudden surprise Corvette burst damage once your team engages. In case 2, their front is now weaker, meaning an easier push for your team.

This game has too many tactical variations and considerations to make blanket statements.


Needs more Admiral Beard.


Posted: //
Aug. 21, 2016, 5:24 p.m.



@ Jawayne
Sorry if i put it like that , but you didnt seem to get my point.
Its not about when it is decided to implement such a thing, its about
when you as a comunity have the posiblility to stop such madness. In all
the games i have played, when something was anouced and you didnt do [other word for feces]
because you "wanted to see how it goes" and then it was gamebreaking, no
gamecompany ever did a rollback/ undo its own demise. No only in the phase
between anouncement and implementation, you as a comunity have to chance
to do something, and thats why people who dislike it should act now, and not
complain afterwards, cause if we wait and "see how it goes" and its [other word for feces],
well afterwards we can lament as much as we want but the thing wont change.


Posted: //
Aug. 21, 2016, 10:26 p.m.


Updated //
Aug. 21, 2016, 10:35 p.m.

Jawayne#8001 posted (#post-42881)

so the best idea for your whole team is to kill it ASAP and for those 5 seconds ignore all other ships. Then back again to the tougher targets. Yes you stop whatever you where doing when a Corvette attacks because it WILL deal more damage than any other target

No matter what ship I fly, if a Corvette goes for a run on me or close to me, I switch targets, no matter what I was doing before this, there may be some exceptions like I got armor amp running and the enemy tac is at 1%, but summed up, thats the only one. Just to emphasize on this, HIGHEST ingame DPS, LOWEST ingame HP, switch targets, if close stop whatever you were doing, shoot ASAP!

Well written..The faster you get done with the vette,the better for your healer or injured low armor ships the match will be.Your teammates could also ignore the vette,but then you cant blame it for being OP.Focus fire ftw.

@Master-M-Master,i dont believe that tiers are complete garbage,nor i do fear them so much,they will implement whatever they want finally,its their game,but believe me the Devs do hear us,they have proven that in the past with "bad" desicions.So i bet its the minority that dont want this "progression" system.It will be implemented before final release,we will have time to test it and give feedback.


"The First Of His Name"


Posted: //
Aug. 22, 2016, 2:14 a.m.


Updated //
Aug. 22, 2016, 2:14 a.m.

Odinous#5262 posted (#post-42923)

@Master-M-Master,i dont believe that tiers are complete garbage,nor i do fear them so much,they will implement whatever they want finally,its their game,but believe me the Devs do hear us,they have proven that in the past with "bad" desicions.So i bet its the minority that dont want this "progression" system.It will be implemented before final release,we will have time to test it and give feedback.

-
I highly, HIGHLY disapprove of this sort of mindset. At least, in this specific case. Had the devs been working on the game in silent, away from the public eye, or occasionally showing off something cool, sure. Fine, whatever. They can do whatever they want, and we don't care. But this game has a public (albeit invite oriented) beta, with money already being poured into it. Several of us (including me) have BOUGHT our way into the beta, specifically. If they make a decision that we disagree with, I'm not saying they should always roll over and do what we want, but saying it's "their game and they can do what they want" is a disservice to the people who will be paying to keep their lights on. And I know you might say "oh, well, it was your decision to buy your way in, you didn't have to." But imagine a startup company saying that to a bunch of investors. "I know you spent money in us, but you have no sway over anything we're doing. Toodles." Wouldn't fly, guy.

I desperately want this game to be good. This is basically my dream game. Giant spaceship fights? Yes, please! So whenever I see an idea that will make me cringe in terror, I will do all I can to rally against it.

Also, I disagree with the notion that the majority "want" the progression system. Simply, the majority do not care. The people who do care are already here, discussing it, right now. Kinda like you and me, oddly enough.


Needs more Admiral Beard.


Posted: //
Aug. 22, 2016, 6:43 a.m.



Mako109#2699 posted (#post-42928)

Odinous#5262 posted (#post-42923)

@Master-M-Master,i dont believe that tiers are complete garbage,nor i do fear them so much,they will implement whatever they want finally,its their game,but believe me the Devs do hear us,they have proven that in the past with "bad" desicions.So i bet its the minority that dont want this "progression" system.It will be implemented before final release,we will have time to test it and give feedback.

-
I highly, HIGHLY disapprove of this sort of mindset. At least, in this specific case. Had the devs been working on the game in silent, away from the public eye, or occasionally showing off something cool, sure. Fine, whatever. They can do whatever they want, and we don't care. But this game has a public (albeit invite oriented) beta, with money already being poured into it. Several of us (including me) have BOUGHT our way into the beta, specifically. If they make a decision that we disagree with, I'm not saying they should always roll over and do what we want, but saying it's "their game and they can do what they want" is a disservice to the people who will be paying to keep their lights on. And I know you might say "oh, well, it was your decision to buy your way in, you didn't have to." But imagine a startup company saying that to a bunch of investors. "I know you spent money in us, but you have no sway over anything we're doing. Toodles." Wouldn't fly, guy.

I desperately want this game to be good. This is basically my dream game. Giant spaceship fights? Yes, please! So whenever I see an idea that will make me cringe in terror, I will do all I can to rally against it.

Also, I disagree with the notion that the majority "want" the progression system. Simply, the majority do not care. The people who do care are already here, discussing it, right now. Kinda like you and me, oddly enough.

Yes,you paid for the opportunity to test this game,but no matter of what we paid we don't own this game.
it's a f2p title,imo tiers and ladder progression we like it or not is necessary to keep the game alive through time.


"The First Of His Name"


Posted: //
Aug. 22, 2016, 9:19 a.m.



Tiers are not necessary to keep the game alive, I dont know how many people already said thats precisely the reason they left world of tanks and similiar games.

I understand it might be some people play to get the next unlock and unlocking new gear is fine. Just dont limit us as much as a Tier system does.

  • You have to concentrate on one ship class to keep up with the grind or your friends will have to play "low tier" to play with you, slowing them down in the grind.

  • Since you have to concentrate on one ship you can only play that ship, no more selecting the ship that benefits your team/friends unless you only play low tier.

  • You have to fight against stronger ships (higher Tier) in certain matches giving you a disadvantage because you grind less.

You cant just join and play with people who started playing the game before you like it is now.
You cant freely pick a ship you want to fly due to the grind.



Posted: //
Aug. 22, 2016, 10:05 a.m.



Master-M-Master#7467 posted (#post-42909)

@ Jawayne
Sorry if i put it like that , but you didnt seem to get my point.
Its not about when it is decided to implement such a thing, its about
when you as a comunity have the posiblility to stop such madness. In all
the games i have played, when something was anouced and you didnt do [other word for feces]
because you "wanted to see how it goes" and then it was gamebreaking, no
gamecompany ever did a rollback/ undo its own demise. No only in the phase
between anouncement and implementation, you as a comunity have to chance
to do something, and thats why people who dislike it should act now, and not
complain afterwards, cause if we wait and "see how it goes" and its [other word for feces],
well afterwards we can lament as much as we want but the thing wont change.

Progression 2.0 was in development for three month when they decided to tell us that they will do it, they worked another two month already on it, and plan to transition to open beta this year, we are not able to prevent it.

Mako109#2699 posted (#post-42898)

@Jawayne

There's more to this game than DPS numbers or kills. With the Bolt Driver, the enemy now knows of your presence, and is presented with two options: leave it be, or send someone to deal with it. In case 1, they now run the risk of sudden surprise Corvette burst damage once your team engages. In case 2, their front is now weaker, meaning an easier push for your team.

This game has too many tactical variations and considerations to make blanket statements.

Yes and no. But what I wrote works in 99% of all situations. If you kite at 5km range with bolt guns besides another Corvette, a fast Destroyer or an Artillery Cruiser no one can do anything to kill you. This means if there is no such class present, you do not have another choice, because it is pointless to try and hunt a Corvette. The surprise attacks are always possible, since the Target Warp of the Corvette has a 16km range and a short windup time, a Corvette can be right beside its favourite target whenever it wants to. Thus paying attention to it when it is not close is not viable. But lets end it here.


Recruit Engineer


Posted: //
Aug. 22, 2016, 7:56 p.m.


Updated //
Aug. 22, 2016, 8:17 p.m.

I would hate to see this game go the way of all those 'world of ...' clones i'd be ashamed as a DEV to go for such a shallow design approach.

The problems with these design are:

  1. stale linearity
  2. a fake progression since everybody is staying in a relativ position to his opponents
  3. a waste of surpassed production assets

Fortunately you can fix this even if you are already following this approach, simply by:

I. Creating a nonlinear system entity - let's call it the captain, that allows for an overall unlimited specialisation on several meta subjects like engineering, material construction, weapon systems, tech research, aswell as ship classes: vettes, x, y, z and roles: support, tank, heals, recon - throughout the captains career, being limited in its usefulness for certain ship/equipment types/combinations...

...as an addition to the linear tier approach and thus creating more complexity.

The outcome would allow, that higher ranks could modify lower tier hulls which they wouldn't use anymore and make them competetive again allthough they already surpassed those tiers. You can come up with a huge variety of meta/tech combinations for example miniaturizing weapons, so that you could fit more of surpassed lower tier guns on the ship - or improving the hull/speed whatever of an outdated ship.

These modifications would either re-strengthen a lower tier ship or allow to shift the role of the ship - lets say from heavy destroyer to dreadnought - or vette to light destroyer.

This way you wouldn't always see only the same 5 ships in a tiered match - and furthermore you could hide your spec by shifting a ships role.

The permutations of the linear and non-linear elements are easily graphable for statistical balancing.

II. Get away from tiered fights. It is a lame system for the intellectual weak exploiting simple psychologic needs by keeping the frustration level high.

If you assign weights to the above mentioned permutations you can balance players by the quality of their combination of tier progression and captain spec - allowing to mix up weaker high tier players with stronger lower tier players and allowing more competition then in tier restricted fights, without the danger of having too strong opponents mixed up with noobs. If you don't invest in modification - you stay within your tier, if you mess it up, you stay in your teier a pay by losing - if you do it in a clever way, you can play with the big boys. Of course you should be able to choose the tiers you play with - upwards and restricting it downwards - in case someone comes up with a weak weighed permutation, that actually would be too strong in special situations. This problem cannot occur, when you freely chose to play against higher tiers, in case a lower tier permutation comes out as too strong - you get matched upwards.


Posted: //
Aug. 22, 2016, 9:48 p.m.



post#7118 posted (#post-42970)

I would hate to see this game go the way of all those 'world of ...' clones i'd be ashamed as a DEV to go for such a shallow design approach.

The problems with these design are:

  1. a fake progression since everybody is staying in a relativ position to his opponents

Its an ability unlocking system only,you can forget about the levels.

Fortunately you can fix this even if you are already following this approach, simply by:

I. Creating a nonlinear system entity - let's call it the captain, that allows for an overall unlimited specialisation on several meta subjects like engineering, material construction, weapon systems, tech research, aswell as ship classes: vettes, x, y, z and roles: support, tank, heals, recon - throughout the captains career, being limited in its usefulness for certain ship/equipment types/combinations...

...as an addition to the linear tier approach and thus creating more complexity.

Exactly why we 2 will not agree, i dont want so much complexity on a shooter game,i want it plain and simple.


"The First Of His Name"

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