FORUMS


Couple of Questions, and a request.



Posted: //
April 30, 2015, 5:25 a.m.


Updated //
April 30, 2015, 5:32 a.m.

Hey all found this game about a week ago, and since then have read a lot of threads, and watched a lot of video's about the game. I hope like the rest of you to get an invite to help with testing and providing input it to making this a great game. I still had a few questions and a suggestion/request.

First a couple of questions;

1) Is there going to be Newtonian Physics or something of the sort to give ships a feeling of weight and momentum? (If you are moving forward it takes a couple of seconds for the thrusters on the bow of the ship to bring you to a stop, etc.)

2) If so will we see something like a lot of space sim games where you can uncouple the direction your ship is facing from its movement. (Thrust forward hit the key to couple/uncouple mode, swing the whole ship 180 degrees while still moving what was forward.)

3) Will there be a Steam release either early access or otherwise?

Suggestion/Request (I realize this will cause some flak to head my way but I haven't seen this class work ever)

I would like to see the replacement of the Sniper class of ships with an Engineer class that fulfills the same role of area denial. The reason I ask this is Snipers are impossible to balance right in my opinion, especially in a space environment where you rely on open spaces to give it a more spacey feeling (I realize it is possible but very limiting without open space).

Sniper classes work on the principle of area denial by making open portions of the map too dangerous or damaging to be reasonably crossed. I believe an Engineer class that is capable of setting up mine fields, automated turrets, and drones is a better solution for a couple of reasons as they cause both players to have to think is it better to spend the time to setup/teardown said item with a long duration (would suggest not a permanent till destroyed duration). As compared to Sniper which if played right will not be able to be reached by any of the ship classes but a stealth vessel. So you ended up with player on the end of the sniping barrage feeling disempowered cause they aren't able to do anything to a Sniper where as they can destroy, go around, or try to speed past a turret/minefield. Snipers cause a very chilling effect on map tactics as well. Generally do to the fact that they out range every other ship type and the general difficulty of killing them if they play right let alone the fact that they can respawn. I have experienced this in many games from Star Conflict, MWO, Fractured Space, Battlefield series, Global Agenda, etc. I have played all sides of this as well Sniper/Target/Sniper hunter.

As to the argument it will be easy to destroy them wait till two of them setup in two friendly corners (with good visuals of each other and the play field) on comms. If the Snipers are any good they will make the game into a roll for their team (I have done this exact tactic in multiple games).

The other argument I imagine will come up will be that well there is lead time so it is not just point and click. I can with 90% acc rate hit most things in Star Conflict from extreme ranges where the lead times are in seconds, as well I am capable of landing first salvo hits in World of Warships with BB's at 20+ KM's where the travel time is 14+ seconds. I have a knack for picking that sort of thing up, even then I am not at the level of some of the people who of course dedicate themselves to learning to be the best at a Sniper Class.

TLDR: Sniper class is a bad thing for games as it takes away from player agency of the target, and they are almost impossible to balance as ultra high skill ceilings on most Sniper classes can cause them be extremely unpowered in an average players hands while being game breakingly good in a highly skilled players hands far more then any other standard archetype I have run into many pvp games.


Posted: //
April 30, 2015, 5:55 a.m.



Am I the only one who starts to think this forum needs a FAQ section?


Posted: //
April 30, 2015, 6:34 a.m.



Zynryuk#3297 posted (#post-2576)

Am I the only one who starts to think this forum needs a FAQ section?

There is... kind of... a FAQ : https://www.greybox.com/dreadnought/en/forum/topic/562/

WKMitchell#4945 posted (#post-2575)

Hey all found this game about a week ago, and since then have read a lot of threads, and watched a lot of video's about the game. I hope like the rest of you to get an invite to help with testing and providing input it to making this a great game. I still had a few questions and a suggestion/request.

First a couple of questions;

1) Is there going to be Newtonian Physics or something of the sort to give ships a feeling of weight and momentum? (If you are moving forward it takes a couple of seconds for the thrusters on the bow of the ship to bring you to a stop, etc.)

I can't say it's totally Newtonian physic, but from what we saw the ships will not be as manoeuvrable as an alien UFO from a disney movie which can go in any direction without the need to break.
Depending of your ship they'll have different speeds (wether to simply go forward or to turn).

Also :

CosmicNite: I think I've read somewhere that gameplay isn't going to be effected by things like gravity, wind resistance ...etc making space and planet battles balanced?

A: Some weapons and abilities are indeed affected by gravity. For example, missiles have a better vertical thrust in space/low gravity environments.

Cannot really tell more at this point.

2) If so will we see something like a lot of space sim games where you can uncouple the direction your ship is facing from its movement. (Thrust forward hit the key to couple/uncouple mode, swing the whole ship 180 degrees while still moving what was forward.)

I'm not sure it works that way. It's pretty much "keep pushing W/Z to go forward, Q/A to turn left, D to turn right, S to go back". Simple and straightforward.

3) Will there be a Steam release either early access or otherwise?

From the QA compendium :

CodexMMO : Will Dreadnought require a Steam account? Or be available direct? Or be available both ways?

A: At this point of development we are working our own standalone launcher. I can image that allot of people would prefer Steam - I personally use it quite a lot myself. But to publish a game on Steam, there is more than meets the eye. There are certain rules a game has to be adhered to, there are certain things that have to be implemented and last but not least there is contractual stuff that I'm really not familiar with in order to talk about.

I'm not saying it will never come. But at this point we are working hard on our launcher and make it as convenient as possible.

Hope I'll answered your questions.

Now about your suggestion :

Suggestion/Request (I realize this will cause some flak to head my way but I haven't seen this class work ever)

I would like to see the replacement of the Sniper class of ships with an Engineer class that fulfills the same role of area denial. The reason I ask this is Snipers are impossible to balance right in my opinion, especially in a space environment where you rely on open spaces to give it a more spacey feeling (I realize it is possible but very limiting without open space).

Sniper classes work on the principle of area denial by making open portions of the map too dangerous or damaging to be reasonably crossed. I believe an Engineer class that is capable of setting up mine fields, automated turrets, and drones is a better solution for a couple of reasons as they cause both players to have to think is it better to spend the time to setup/teardown said item with a long duration (would suggest not a permanent till destroyed duration). As compared to Sniper which if played right will not be able to be reached by any of the ship classes but a stealth vessel. So you ended up with player on the end of the sniping barrage feeling disempowered cause they aren't able to do anything to a Sniper where as they can destroy, go around, or try to speed past a turret/minefield. Snipers cause a very chilling effect on map tactics as well. Generally do to the fact that they out range every other ship type and the general difficulty of killing them if they play right let alone the fact that they can respawn. I have experienced this in many games from Star Conflict, MWO, Fractured Space, Battlefield series, Global Agenda, etc. I have played all sides of this as well Sniper/Target/Sniper hunter.

As to the argument it will be easy to destroy them wait till two of them setup in two friendly corners (with good visuals of each other and the play field) on comms. If the Snipers are any good they will make the game into a roll for their team (I have done this exact tactic in multiple games).

The other argument I imagine will come up will be that well there is lead time so it is not just point and click. I can with 90% acc rate hit most things in Star Conflict from extreme ranges where the lead times are in seconds, as well I am capable of landing first salvo hits in World of Warships with BB's at 20+ KM's where the travel time is 14+ seconds. I have a knack for picking that sort of thing up, even then I am not at the level of some of the people who of course dedicate themselves to learning to be the best at a Sniper Class.

TLDR: Sniper class is a bad thing for games as it takes away from player agency of the target, and they are almost impossible to balance as ultra high skill ceilings on most Sniper classes can cause them be extremely unpowered in an average players hands while being game breakingly good in a highly skilled players hands far more then any other standard archetype I have run into many pvp games.

First, you should now that there will be turrets, drones and even docks to launch fighters. But there will not be available for all classes. Also the Tactical Cruiser is the engineer of the field, working as a medic or a different kind of support depending of your loadout.

You're right that in some games, snipers can be really powerfull, but generally because you lack the possibility to quickly close the distance and surprise them.

In Dreadnought however there's a lot more options to give them a hard time. First the Corvette (the quick/stealth ship class) will be pretty much a hard counter to them. Attacking from surprising angles where the AC can't defend itself (they have a limited fire angle, so if you attack from behind they can't use their rail guns to kill you).
You also have the Shield and Thruster boost. All ships in the game have access to these options, and it will help a lot to lower the damage output of the AC and close the distance to them or get cover. Plus a lot of ships have dive/dodge manoeuvers to avoid the shots (AC shots effectively have travel time).
Surprisingly the maps have a lot of covers, even the space one (the one that is in Saturn's ring).
The Dreadnought class ship (The heaviest class ship) can also warp next to an AC, and let's be honest, at close range I don't think the AC will be able to match a Dreadnought firepower.
Not to forget the eventual disables that you can launch, like the scrambler missile of the Destroyer.

So I won't worry too much yet about AC, they are indeed powerfull if you let them space to shoot, but otherwise they are relatively week.


Waiting Carrier.exe to be present in Dreadnought.
Please wait...


Posted: //
April 30, 2015, 8:20 a.m.



You might not feel so OP in your sniper when I warp just off your port side and unload a full broadside from my dreadnought with a tactical cruiser warping in for support.

I do understand your concerns but until we've played the game I don't really think it's a issue when you will have abilities like warp in the game.


Detected three minor impacts across the bow, No damage registered, Probably just debris, Sir.


Posted: //
April 30, 2015, 2:30 p.m.



Thanks for pointing me to the Q&A honestly admit I brain farted and forgot to look there for the answers =p

Secondly CosmicNite from the game play I have seen the warp ability maxes out at around 5km, same thing with the Dreads weapons. So you still have a large dead zone where the sniper has the atleast 5km from the gameplay I was watching to shoot you without getting hit back. In 5KM they can do a lot of damage let alone what a person who has a lot of experience with the game can do.

So I know it is all speculation I just don't want this game to end up another World of Tanks where we point out problems for years they only fix things like gold rounds, aim bot mods too late for many of there original fans, and never fixed artillery units because they were a part of the game and it was no longer beta when they got it through their heads that there was a problem with the unit type.


Posted: //
April 30, 2015, 3:28 p.m.



the thing is, that dreadnoughts are so slow, so they take more than enough time to actually get into the dangerzone. meanwhile a corvette on your team can go and scout/take out snipers. and if you have a support healing you, then the damage done by a sniper may not seem that great anymore.


time you enjoy wasting, is no wasted time


Posted: //
May 2, 2015, 11:02 a.m.



<----------Sniper at heart I have enjoyed playing as a sniper, among other classes, since the first online game ( TRIBES don't let anyone tell you different) to implement one. But I like your idea of an alternative to a sniper. As was pointed out Dreadnought has a support class already but that is more of a healer class and it would be interesting to have an engineer class. It would be kool to play around with that lineup and see how it effects game play.

I personally look forward to exploring the mechanics of a 5v5 all Dreadnought class battle. To have a old time navel battle of broadsides would be awesome in the setting of this game.


Captain Junius Flagg
"BlackFlag"

Death Widows Not all black flags are black


Posted: //
May 2, 2015, 1:09 p.m.



I have to admit, like BlackFlag, I am a sniper at heart. In most shooters that is my gun/class of choice. I played 12 games of Dreadnought at PAX East this year and only played the Artillery Cruiser so I have a good amount of experience with it, or at least more than most. That being said the Artillery Cruiser is like no other sniper class I have played, granted I have never really played any space fighter games. You not only have to take into account distance but an x,y,z axis of movement and ship size: and let me tell you hitting a Corvette or Tactical Cruiser all the way across the map is no easy task for someone who doesn't normally play a sniper. If you watch gameplay videos you can see a a lot of people struggle playing the Artillery Cruiser.

About balancing the Artillery Cruiser: while it is hard to balance any sniper, as most people in shooter games expect them to be a one hit kill, I think they did a pretty good job balancing it so far in Dreadnought. It takes multiple hits to kill a Corvette which is the most fragile of the ships. To add to the balancing you have the Corvette with it's stealth ability and let me tell you it is very easy to lose a Corvette in the heat of battle and have them come up below / to the side of you and take you out without a fight.

It has been mentioned around/suggested by other community members and I do like the idea of some sort of engineer class. While they have said it will not be added at launch, that only the current 5 classes with 3 ships per class will be available, maybe they could add it if they make some sort of expansion for the game in the future.


Dreadnought Reddit - Moderator Dreadnought Discord Server - Admin


Posted: //
May 5, 2015, 3:48 a.m.



There were already a lot of very true answers given. Let me quickly recap, testifies and maybe clarifies something.

WKMitchell#4945 posted (#post-2575)
1) Is there going to be Newtonian Physics or something of the sort to give ships a feeling of weight and momentum? (If you are moving forward it takes a couple of seconds for the thrusters on the bow of the ship to bring you to a stop, etc.)

You can pretty much think of the flight control as a modern fly-by-wire system. With your input you indicate the direct you want to move - and then the various thrusters do their very best to achieve that. If you don't indicate any direction your ship wants to stop.
But these are huge chunks of metal that need to be moved. It will take some time to accelerate towards the direction you want and it will take some time to counter an ongoing motion. This will of cause depend on the ship (and therefore the size of the ship) you are commanding.

WKMitchell#4945 posted (#post-2575)
2) If so will we see something like a lot of space sim games where you can uncouple the direction your ship is facing from its movement. (Thrust forward hit the key to couple/uncouple mode, swing the whole ship 180 degrees while still moving what was forward.)

No - nothing like this is planned. I see this working in other sims with smaller fighter jets. But I don't think that large capital ships should behave like that.
Drifting away with your fighter and colliding with a space station might lead to a call with your insurance. Drifting away with your Dreadnought and colliding with a space station might lead to a call with your architect =D

WKMitchell#4945 posted (#post-2575)
3) Will there be a Steam release either early access or otherwise?

As already quote correctly - we are currently not aiming towards steam. This doesn't rule out that we might reevaluate this at some point, but it is not on the agenda yet.

WKMitchell#4945 posted (#post-2575)
I would like to see the replacement of the Sniper class of ships with an Engineer class that fulfills the same role of area denial. The reason I ask this is Snipers are impossible to balance right in my opinion, especially in a space environment where you rely on open spaces to give it a more spacey feeling (I realize it is possible but very limiting without open space).

I definitely see where you coming from. I have to admit that it's quite challenging to tune the sniper to make him fit into the overall balance.

But I think ruling out the class complete is not the way to go. There were already a lot of arguments and various counter measures mentioned - and they are all very true.
Our environments - even the one in space - aren't that open. There is a lot of cover you can work with and I would say that it's not possible to control an entire map from one or two positions.
In addition there are a lot of maneuvers that can make you close distances quite fast (warp) or unseen (cloak). There are also long distance weapons that can force a sniper out of the position (if there is a large missile heading your way, you better run).

The concerns are valid. We saw a lot of the mentioned issues in various play tests. But I think we are making good progress in eradicating these issues.


Stefan "Stiefel" Damberg
Engineer, YAGER


Posted: //
May 5, 2015, 5:31 a.m.



Thanks for the feedback Stiefel, I'm not as concerned about sniper play in Dreadnought as I would be in other games but still still nice to see its being monitored.


Detected three minor impacts across the bow, No damage registered, Probably just debris, Sir.

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