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SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233854) said:


wow, this sounds like a terrible decision. Even with an enhanced battle bonus, I cant imagine it being better than having a ship in both veteran and legendary fleets. Further you can now have less ships receiving the xp since theyre all shoehorned into legendary fleet.


And not that veteran will only be T3, given the far less xp and creds needed, xp are going to accumulate with nowhere to spend. If thats an attempt to get people to buy currency conversion thats even worse.


Im seeing a lot more cons. Yeah, it may be easier for players just getting to T3 but it sounds like no long term gain.



This was exactly my point in my 'Please NO!' thread.


Now read SADs post. Notice his first point is a lets wait and see....how many times have we heard this and been disappointed. His second point just highlights the issue isn't a new one, no it isn't new - still here! His third point is another subject that he believes isn't so bad but then he provides a solution to make it better. So we have 2 things that have been bad for a while and one where we will have to see what will happen. And that was supposed to be a positive post about the current state lol.


VirtualRiot#3785 posted (#post-233846) said:


To catch you up on upcoming changes: T4 is no longer in Veteran, only Legendary.


The Good:



  • Gap between T4 & T5 is much smaller than T3 & T4

  • Veteran will be a much more even playing field

  • Will most likely greatly reduce legendary que times

  • May improve legendary matchmaking


The Bad:



  • Will be much harder to level up T4 ships, as getting high scores will be harder in legendary

  • Will also be harder to level T4 ships, as you will only be able to get Battle Bonus in one mode instead of two

  • Going from flying T3s to being up against T5s is a huge huge jump

  • Players just out of T3 will be introduced to the merciless seal clubbing of certain elite groups

  • Some T5 modules greatly outclass T4 modules of the same type


Overall:


I think the real thing to improve here is general module balance within the T4/T5 bracket. The big problem here is players fresh out of T3 going up against elite T5 groups, and he reason elite groups stomp so well is that they typically take advantage of the most overpowered stragies in the game, which are just exacerbated by access to T5 modules.
Good change, there are definitely tradeoffs made here, but overall net positive.



Good points. You outline the problem in your overall section very well. Although a slightly better scenario Dreadnought have failed to address the real.


So many have come up with alternatives but hey, it's not as if they should maybe listen, they have been doing so well up to now. O7


SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233847) said:


Is T4 being legendary only actually happening, or is this just a suggestion?



According to the YouTube video it is.


VirtualRiot makes some good pro and cons to it. One better, he makes a suggestion to address the actual issue as oppose to merely transfering a problem elsewhere.


Wow, just think of all those players that bought sub-optimal Hero ships at least they had Veteran; not any more. What a kick in the nuts lol. Well done Dreadnought.


SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233829) said:



WaveRider#4219 posted (#post-233826) said:



SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233820) said:


Not really sure how I went against my own quote? They have to make money so theres a balance. Whether they have the balance right is another question entirely.


Im with you in that I dont spend money elite. Its not my price point but for other players it is. You cant cater to all so they have to find a median. Again, whether they have that right or not is another question. I'll tell you no, but maybe Belial will tell you yes. Who is right? It really boils down to the individual.


I mean, Im not sure how to really retain people beyong suggestions Ive given. Sometimes devs listen, sometimes they dont. Greybox may not listen at all. Something should be done the way they lose players, that much we can agree on.


Yeah, figured we were on the same page with the friendly reminder sometimes things just come over tone deaf on the internet :p



Your original quote was about how you can complete the game without paying, followed by people wanting things quick and easy, you then say the grind sucks. But if you think the grind is valid because the game can be completed for free, then how can you say it sucks; you just explained it was there for a reason and you agree with the reason. Most people will not think something sucks if there is a valid reason for it being. That is how I believe you went against your own quote.


My point is people don't necessarily want things quick and easy, but rather they want to feel they are making progress and are presented with a fair challenge. There is no 'easy' in a game based on winning or losing, you have to accept you will lose to a better opponent at some point. But if you see yourself progressing to a point where you have your optimum load out in a tier V ship then you will know you are on an equal footing. Then it is down to you, your team and how you feel.


You accept you may be at a disadvantage as you climb the tiers, but the game awards your progress. It all comes down to if you think the pace of progress is good enough; that will always be down to the individual.


In any other game the difference between a new low tier and an optimum high tier in this game would have players calling OP on the high tier ship. Unfortunately I know this game does not have the numbers to rectify this by creating more than the 3 fleet choices; I know this because rather than change the issue, Dreadnought have merely juggled the tiers within the Recruit/Veteran/Legendary fleets.


If the one thing we can agree on is the game needs to stop losing players then I'm fine with that, as that has been my hope. Because without players this game will die.



Ah, ok. Well the balance is the business side, but while I dont like it I understand it. Understanding doesnt mean one agrees or likes it. I dont like the grind, many dont, but that doesnt mean I dont understand why they do it. They need to make money, but I dont like how they try and force elite to do it with a big grind.


I can agree with the making progress. I know there are a lot of players frustrated they dont do well then end up with little xp and creds. Its frustrating.


Yeah, the gap between T3 and T4 is too big imo. People get to veteran then are trounced by T4s piloted by vets with OBs and better modules. Its why Ive been saying T3s need a stat boost or more OBs need to be available at that level. Veteran is when people atart to flee.



Ahhh, ok. You don't like something, think it sucks, understand the game is losing people, but accept why they do it nonetheless? I can't quite get my head around the logic of that, but I know some of it will probably be down to you hoping something will help this game (so not wanting to be as negative as I am being), and some of it is probably me just not understanding well enough.


It's your comment about 'understanding it is a business thing'. If you openly admit they need to do something to stop losing people, what they are doing isn't working (otherwise they would be doing better) and they need to make money, yet their business approach is not doing that - how can you understand that?


My view is you don't make money by making people believe their time is being wasted. You take them on a journey, you know 'Around the World in 80 days', just don't end up making one of those days a Groundhog Day where you seem to go nowhere. O7


Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-233823) said:


An FYI Waverider, legendary is quite active all the time now. I never have a problem to find a match after 11am GMT.



The time is 2150hrs, I logged on and asked how Legendary was tonight, within 15 secs the first reply was from Ghost_Strain. He said:


HAHAHA!


I rest my case. O7


The chat room was #160 if you want to check quick.


SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233820) said:


Not really sure how I went against my own quote? They have to make money so theres a balance. Whether they have the balance right is another question entirely.


Im with you in that I dont spend money elite. Its not my price point but for other players it is. You cant cater to all so they have to find a median. Again, whether they have that right or not is another question. I'll tell you no, but maybe Belial will tell you yes. Who is right? It really boils down to the individual.


I mean, Im not sure how to really retain people beyong suggestions Ive given. Sometimes devs listen, sometimes they dont. Greybox may not listen at all. Something should be done the way they lose players, that much we can agree on.


Yeah, figured we were on the same page with the friendly reminder sometimes things just come over tone deaf on the internet :p



Your original quote was about how you can complete the game without paying, followed by people wanting things quick and easy, you then say the grind sucks. But if you think the grind is valid because the game can be completed for free, then how can you say it sucks; you just explained it was there for a reason and you agree with the reason. Most people will not think something sucks if there is a valid reason for it being. That is how I believe you went against your own quote.


My point is people don't necessarily want things quick and easy, but rather they want to feel they are making progress and are presented with a fair challenge. There is no 'easy' in a game based on winning or losing, you have to accept you will lose to a better opponent at some point. But if you see yourself progressing to a point where you have your optimum load out in a tier V ship then you will know you are on an equal footing. Then it is down to you, your team and how you feel.


You accept you may be at a disadvantage as you climb the tiers, but the game awards your progress. It all comes down to if you think the pace of progress is good enough; that will always be down to the individual.


In any other game the difference between a new low tier and an optimum high tier in this game would have players calling OP on the high tier ship. Unfortunately I know this game does not have the numbers to rectify this by creating more than the 3 fleet choices; I know this because rather than change the issue, Dreadnought have merely juggled the tiers within the Recruit/Veteran/Legendary fleets.


If the one thing we can agree on is the game needs to stop losing players then I'm fine with that, as that has been my hope. Because without players this game will die.


WaveRider#4219 posted (#post-233818) said:



SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233815) said:



WaveRider#4219 posted (#post-233808) said:



SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233806) said:


I get your point but again, this game is designed to make Greybox money and theyre not going to release a game where they make none. Also, technically you dont have to pay to get all the game, it just takes longer. Thats what sets it apart from FtW.


Yeah, the grind sucks, I dont think people will disagree. But its a typical business model for games at this point. Again, as consumers we want things as quick and cheap as possible, but that doesnt always align with a provider making money. Never forget, as much as people may love this game, Greybox is in it for profits. Its just how it is.


Im not saying i agree with the business model or like it, and Ive voiced my opposition numerous times about the price of cosmetics and currency conversion. But at the same time, I cant totally fault Greybox for running the business side as thry do.


Also, just a friendly reminder, the devs dont handle the business side, they only handle the game itself.



Again, with a more invested player base you will get more people committing to the game and wanting to spend because it is worth their time and they feel invested.


Yes the grind sucks. Yes Greybox is in it for profits, yes they haven't done very well and yes people are still leaving because they aren't hooked - that is also how it is.


I don't think the business model is great either, I'm assuming the fact that they had to let people go is a result of this. I can fault Greybox because they haven't changed as far as I can see. If you can see things aren't going well and you continue to carry on the same way who else is to blame?


A friendly reminder, I'm only discussing the game I play and the experience I have playing the game. As you have stated the devs handle the game, so who else am I going to address when talking about the game or indeed talking about the video where the devs were explaining what they were doing?



I agree, get people hooked and they spend money, but they have to set things at a level that does make them profit. If they make the grind too easy, people wont pay for elite which is their biggest source of income. Players may be on the losing end, but it also boils down to players price points. Some see it worth it but others dont.


As far as getting people hooked. Well, the game is mostly balanced but the problem seems to lie more with newer players getting wrecked in veteran. I pushed through and got better, but a lot of people seem unwilling. As matchmaking is an issue Im not sure what besides fixing that can be done other than givingnstat boosts to T3, but that doesnt solve the problem of modules and OBs. Maybe have most OB be available at T3 insread of T4?


As for the friendly reminder (dont think you took offense but want to be sure) I was merely pointing out market prices arent set by the devs and they dont have control over that, so they cant be held accountable for those things. When it comes to gameplay, absolutely you address them.



Ahhh, but you just went against your own previous quotes:


I get your point but again, this game is designed to make Greybox money and theyre not going to release a game where they make none. Also, technically you dont have to pay to get all the game, it just takes longer. Thats what sets it apart from FtW.


If it is designed to make them money then they need people to believe they are getting their moneys worth. With such a slow grind I won't even consider spending my money. That will make things take longer, which means I won't spend money because I have no idea if I will bother to stay with something that seems a chore.


When I first started I was progressing well, thought 'this is great, may not be jumping leaps and bounds through this, but I could'.....I bought the Starter pack and advanced faster with elite. I also bought some Captain gear; my family even bought me the Leviathon....more elite time....I get something from the game, the game gets something from me...Invested!


I then hit Tier III, even with the elite I had, the grind was ridiculous; when elite ran out I knew it would take longer. I then started to think 'God, the same thing over and over with no real progression' , so started to play other stuff. I didn't believe elite was worth it, I didn't think spending any more money on the game was worth it, as I believe now that I am more likely to leave then stay. Just how many more have already done the same.


Don't worry about the 'friendly reminder' bit, if I'm not sure how someone meant a comment to come across I always look at it being harmless. All I do is use the comment myself, that way the way they then reply to its use tells me all I need to know about how they meant it to come across. O7



SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233815) said:



WaveRider#4219 posted (#post-233808) said:



SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233806) said:


I get your point but again, this game is designed to make Greybox money and theyre not going to release a game where they make none. Also, technically you dont have to pay to get all the game, it just takes longer. Thats what sets it apart from FtW.


Yeah, the grind sucks, I dont think people will disagree. But its a typical business model for games at this point. Again, as consumers we want things as quick and cheap as possible, but that doesnt always align with a provider making money. Never forget, as much as people may love this game, Greybox is in it for profits. Its just how it is.


Im not saying i agree with the business model or like it, and Ive voiced my opposition numerous times about the price of cosmetics and currency conversion. But at the same time, I cant totally fault Greybox for running the business side as thry do.


Also, just a friendly reminder, the devs dont handle the business side, they only handle the game itself.



Again, with a more invested player base you will get more people committing to the game and wanting to spend because it is worth their time and they feel invested.


Yes the grind sucks. Yes Greybox is in it for profits, yes they haven't done very well and yes people are still leaving because they aren't hooked - that is also how it is.


I don't think the business model is great either, I'm assuming the fact that they had to let people go is a result of this. I can fault Greybox because they haven't changed as far as I can see. If you can see things aren't going well and you continue to carry on the same way who else is to blame?


A friendly reminder, I'm only discussing the game I play and the experience I have playing the game. As you have stated the devs handle the game, so who else am I going to address when talking about the game or indeed talking about the video where the devs were explaining what they were doing?



I agree, get people hooked and they spend money, but they have to set things at a level that does make them profit. If they make the grind too easy, people wont pay for elite which is their biggest source of income. Players may be on the losing end, but it also boils down to players price points. Some see it worth it but others dont.


As far as getting people hooked. Well, the game is mostly balanced but the problem seems to lie more with newer players getting wrecked in veteran. I pushed through and got better, but a lot of people seem unwilling. As matchmaking is an issue Im not sure what besides fixing that can be done other than givingnstat boosts to T3, but that doesnt solve the problem of modules and OBs. Maybe have most OB be available at T3 insread of T4?


As for the friendly reminder (dont think you took offense but want to be sure) I was merely pointing out market prices arent set by the devs and they dont have control over that, so they cant be held accountable for those things. When it comes to gameplay, absolutely you address them.



Ahhh, but you just went against your own previous quotes:


I get your point but again, this game is designed to make Greybox money and theyre not going to release a game where they make none. Also, technically you dont have to pay to get all the game, it just takes longer. Thats what sets it apart from FtW.


If it is designed to make them money then they need people to believe they are getting their moneys worth. With such a slow grind I won't even consider spending my money. That will make things take longer, which means I won't spend money because I have no idea if I will bother to stay with something that seems a chore.


When I first started I was progressing well, thought 'this is great, may not be jumping leaps and bounds through this, but I could'.....I bought the Starter pack and advanced faster with elite. I also bought some Captain gear; my family even bought me the Leviathon....more elite time....Invested.


I then hit Tier III, even with the elite I had, the grind was ridiculous; when elite ran out I knew it would take longer. I then started to think 'God, the same thing over and over with no real progression' , so started to play other stuff. I didn't believe elite was worth it, I didn't think spending any more money on the game was worth it, as I believe now that I am more likely to leave then stay. Just how many more have already done the same.


Don't worry about the 'friendly reminder' bit, if I'm not sure how someone meant a comment to come across I always look at it being harmless. All I do is use the comment myself, that way the way they then reply to its use tells me all I need to know about how they meant it to come across. O7


Shocknfunk#5058 posted (#post-233810) said:


not sure what the problem is. didnt take long for me to get T4s. even with the playerbase today i got in 3 others right before steam launch.



Good for you Shocknfunk O7.


It.appears that the company have provided you with exactly what you want. I am sure there are many more that are also extremely satisfied.


I am not saying it can't be done, I know it can - who else is pleading for others to play Legendary each night , if not those who have reached that level?


What's more these players will soon have more Tier IV players to face off against, because it will be no longer a choice but a must that they play at Legendary..


I have no doubt it will be judged an 'awesome' success. But if things do get better for Legendary games won't that prove there were many Tier IV players that had previously said no to Legendary? My suggestion is that is due to the difference in the ships but more importantly the time those players knew they would be at a disadvantage because of the grind, so they chose to stay at Veteran.


SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233806) said:


I get your point but again, this game is designed to make Greybox money and theyre not going to release a game where they make none. Also, technically you dont have to pay to get all the game, it just takes longer. Thats what sets it apart from FtW.


Yeah, the grind sucks, I dont think people will disagree. But its a typical business model for games at this point. Again, as consumers we want things as quick and cheap as possible, but that doesnt always align with a provider making money. Never forget, as much as people may love this game, Greybox is in it for profits. Its just how it is.


Im not saying i agree with the business model or like it, and Ive voiced my opposition numerous times about the price of cosmetics and currency conversion. But at the same time, I cant totally fault Greybox for running the business side as thry do.


Also, just a friendly reminder, the devs dont handle the business side, they only handle the game itself.



Again, with a more invested player base you will get more people committing to the game and wanting to spend because it is worth their time and they feel invested.


Yes the grind sucks. Yes Greybox is in it for profits, yes they haven't done very well and yes people are still leaving because they aren't hooked - that is also how it is.


I don't think the business model is great either, I'm assuming the fact that they had to let people go is a result of this. I can fault Greybox because they haven't changed as far as I can see. If you can see things aren't going well and you continue to carry on the same way who else is to blame?


A friendly reminder, I'm only discussing the game I play and the experience I have playing the game. As you have stated the devs handle the game, so who else am I going to address when talking about the game or indeed talking about the video where the devs were explaining what they were doing?