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_WaveRider_

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SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-233800) said:


Belial does have a point in that this is a FtP game and in order to make income they need to have something like Elite status. Sure we want the grind reduced as consumers but its also a balancing act as Greybox does need to make money. A FtP game will be a no game to play if the company goes under, it isnt a charity after all.


I will also say when first getting to T3 the grind seems bad, but after you get more experienced and get to T4, T3 doesnt seem nearly as bad as initially.


I will disagree with Belial on cosmetics some. Yes, they cant make them too cheap, but they cant overprice them either. many paying people paying $3 apiece per skin will pay for multiple skins whereas you will have far fewer people paying $12 for a single skin. Its why cosmetics havent sold. I also dont think the devs woukd need to constantly put out skins: i dont think people will buy so many to the point they cant remotely use them all.



The FtP point is absolutely void of logic if you are trying to say the game doesn't have to entertain and capture the playerbase because it is free. That's like saying I'm a singer who goes under the name Dreadnought and I sing one type of music, free to all my fans (science fiction opera), if you want me to sing my full album I'm gonna make you wait a loooong time before you get it all; of course I can sing some other stuff but if you want different, you're gonna have to pay! But hey what's so wrong in making people listen to the same song over and over again, as they slowly work through my album!


That scenario is pretty much this game, and I am certainly not surprised that a little way into the album, players have looked elsewhere for variety and a better experience. I'm sure there will be my loyal fans out there that will absolutely love my voice and take whatever I do as platinum, but I would also not be too surprised if some say 'You know what, it's just not worth my time'. My fan base will diminish, I'll probably have to lay off some of my backing group and need to sort my shizzle out in order to reinvigorate my career. Maybe if I go on iTunes (Steam) it will give my waning career a boost, you know get new players (sorry listeners) in, I'd just better not make a poor job of it!


I know there are sci-fi opera fans out there, all i need to do is take them on the journey with me, release new stuff and let them enjoy that journey. Hook them and offer them special edition album covers etc to get them hooked, build that fan base by making it cost effective for people to get more involved and invested. Become the best singer out there.


Or I could say hey, my music is free, you should be grateful. O7


Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-233799) said:



WaveRider#4219 posted (#post-233790) said:
The world we live in wants everything yesterday, unfortunately we can't have that. So what people look for is something they believe is acceptable and everybody's acceptable is different.


For instance the guy you said was making a silly complaint; if I was new to the game I would totally agree, but I'm not. I've played this game and found on hitting tier III the grind just made it feel as if I was sitting still. It took absolutely no time to get to tier III, it then took an age to get a tier IV.


This grind made me lose any enjoyment as I felt I was getting nowhere; this had a knock on effect of me going elsewhere to enjoy my gaming and reduced my play time on Dreadnought, my commitment and my connection with this game.


So no, I don't think the guy that complained is silly, I think from my own experience it highlights exactly what is wrong with the game. What I think is silly is after many years of losing players the devs haven't realised this; wouldn't you agree?



No, you don't progress if you don't play. You can't take real world time in to acocunt of how quickly you progress in a game. we could both have "played" for a month, but in that time, you could have played 20 hours, and I could have played 10. why would I then exspect to be at the same point as some one who has spent double the time in game? that makes zero sence.


You don't like the grind, thats fine. Not every game is for everyone and that is fine too. There are many games I like the idea of, but don't like How they work, Overwatch, World of warcraft, CoD to name a few. There are games that I happen to not like, and thats ok. They are just not for me. I'm not the target audience. If theis was a pay to play game, you'd probably have more waight for your argument, but it's not. The Devs have to balance a way to keep people in the game for the long haul, and make money. Reduce the grind and elite becomes worthless to buy. Lower the prices for cosmetics too much, and you have to keep pumping out cosmetics as fast as you can, to keep things "fresh" and keep money rolling in.


Saying things need to change, then giving vague at best ways to do it, is not really helpful. How would you improve grind? what should change? how should they change it? how would you keep people happy? then, you need to look at how will you fund all this? Will this really help player retention, or will it just keep people happy for a little bit?


"Fixing" things is not as easy as changing a few numbers, you have to take in to account how this will effect things down the line, and how it will affect the players you currently have. That is the real problem, is it better to work for they players you have, or the players you hope to have?



lol of course you can take real world time into account when playing this game; as real word time is real life and the time each of us have is valuable. That is why it is so important that what we do matters and is considered worth while.


How would I improve the grind? Simple (and it has been said many times before), reduce cost and experience needed to progress or increase rewards in those 2 areas; it really isn't difficult, just take a look at tier I to tier II. It literally is already in game so it is very easy to do.


Of course I'm not stating that each level shouldn't take a little longer, but at the moment it is not worth my while, so if I play it is Veteran Rookie and then Veteran again. I will not play my new Tier IV in Legendary as I see that decision as merely moving an issue not solving it. So the game has managed to have even less appeal to me.


The 'weight to the arguement' will never rest on my comments, I merely give my opinion on what I believe is wrong and I also state how to change it, and it is already in game so is easy. Will it make things better in the future, I have no idea - but take a look at the past my friend, it isn't great and something needs to change. The weight to the arguement will always be the people who continue to leave. O7


ovsianka#6135 posted (#post-233797) said:



WaveRider#4219 posted (#post-233795) said:



ovsianka#6135 posted (#post-233794) said:


I don't think the grind itself is much too long or heavy. What drives me crazy is how it doesn't make any sense: so I can research and buy the modules I want. That's cool, the two prices fit their purpose well - experience gives me know-how, money gives me hardware.


But then I need to research AND buy like 15 more modules to get to the next ship? Why? Why would I buy them if I don't ever plan on using most of them? If I need to pay both exp and credits EVERY TIME, why bother having two currencies at all? There was a point to it back when tech was still a tech tree - players changed they loadout while they progressed. Now - I can't see any.


That and the ridiculous rewards in career progression (4500 exp for 5000 kils, yay! Almost 1 exp per enemy! Almost enough for a Tier 2 module!)...



You've just explained the grind. It does include progression through the tiers which you have just described.



Yeah, obviously. My point is - I don't mind it's long. I do mind it looks like it was designed by committee.



How would you prefer it work? If you like the length of time it takes to get to the next ship, what would you change to keep that grind time but make it interesting to you?


ovsianka#6135 posted (#post-233794) said:


I don't think the grind itself is much too long or heavy. What drives me crazy is how it doesn't make any sense: so I can research and buy the modules I want. That's cool, the two prices fit their purpose well - experience gives me know-how, money gives me hardware.


But then I need to research AND buy like 15 more modules to get to the next ship? Why? Why would I buy them if I don't ever plan on using most of them? If I need to pay both exp and credits EVERY TIME, why bother having two currencies at all? There was a point to it back when tech was still a tech tree - players changed they loadout while they progressed. Now - I can't see any.


That and the ridiculous rewards in career progression (4500 exp for 5000 kils, yay! Almost 1 exp per enemy! Almost enough for a Tier 2 module!)...



You've just explained the grind. It does include progression through the tiers which you have just described.


Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-233781) said:



WaveRider#4219 posted (#post-233778) said:



Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-233774) said:


The "grind" is not that bad. I'm closing in on 260 hours, of game time, and I have 3 T5's left to unlock. I have 2 modules left on the AV T4 art, 15 on the Nox and 13 on the Madusa. That was for the vast majority done with out elite. Sure it can be slow going while you get the modules you want. But once you have them, the "grind" to the next tier has gone.



I'd say tell that to the other players that feel the way I do, but many already left which is why so much was/is riding on the Steam launch and the new players. Unfortunately that didn't go too well either,



The problem is, people want everything yesterday. With this being a free to play game, they also exspect everything for free, or with little to know work, everything should play out they way they want, and there ship should be the best and anything that beats them is OP. While some complaints are valid, the vast majority of them are poeple who are coming from salt. They had a bad experiance for what ever reason, while somethings may or may not be valid, you have to temper the salt with the real feed back.


Had a guy the other day complaining that they had played for 2 years and not got a single T5. Turns out in that 2 years they had played for around 60 hours, they had almost all the T4's unlocked, but no T5's. So the game was too grindy. Now in the same time frame I have, with out elite for the vast majority of the time, unlocked almost all the ships. In just under 2 years I've played for around 250 ish hours. Sounds like a silly complaint wouldnt you agree?



The world we live in wants everything yesterday, unfortunately we can't have that. So what people look for is something they believe is acceptable and everybody's acceptable is different.


For instance the guy you said was making a silly complaint; if I was new to the game I would totally agree, but I'm not. I've played this game and found on hitting tier III the grind just made it feel as if I was sitting still. It took absolutely no time to get to tier III, it then took an age to get a tier IV.


This grind made me lose any enjoyment as I felt I was getting nowhere; this had a knock on effect of me going elsewhere to enjoy my gaming and reduced my play time on Dreadnought, my commitment and my connection with this game.


So no, I don't think the guy that complained is silly, I think from my own experience it highlights exactly what is wrong with the game. What I think is silly is after many years of losing players the devs haven't realised this; wouldn't you agree?


Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-233774) said:


The "grind" is not that bad. I'm closing in on 260 hours, of game time, and I have 3 T5's left to unlock. I have 2 modules left on the AV T4 art, 15 on the Nox and 13 on the Madusa. That was for the vast majority done with out elite. Sure it can be slow going while you get the modules you want. But once you have them, the "grind" to the next tier has gone.



I'd say tell that to the other players that feel the way I do, but many already left which is why so much was/is riding on the Steam launch and the new players. Unfortunately that didn't go too well either, but just for you I will remain optimistic.


Yay Dreadnought is going to fix all the mistakes they made....at some point. Awesome!
Yay they haven't addressed the grind but they have moved the goal posts to the right. Really great!
Yay the Lead designer says there will be a new battle bonus with new tipping points, that is bound to be Super Awesome!
Yay the OBs are going to be changed too! That's exciting! Why? Because Dreadnought are going to release an MM system that will actually work (god knows how many more experienced companies still can't get this right, but hey Dreadnought has had no problems so far have they!).


All the 'Super, great awesome, cool, exciting, amazing' optimistic words are a trademark of the Dreadnought Special Monthly Release.


Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-233772) said:



WaveRider#4219 posted (#post-233771) said:



Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-233768) said:


A fresh T4 will gear up faster than a fresh T5 as T4 modules are cheaper. You need 60k+ for "cheap" T5 modules, and then the the more costly ones are 70K+ with a 90K credit cost. The MM will also balance squads correctly with "veteran player" squads only facing other "veteran" player squads. As opposed to the (So I've been told) any squad of any player level and size vs squad of any player level and size.


So let's see how it all pans out before we start tellingthe devs they are doingit wrong, I'm not saying I don't agree it's not "just moving the problem" because I believe it is. But if the MM actually dose it's job, then it should be just fine.



'Let's see how it all pans out', that sent a shiver down the spine, as I'm sure certain people said the same thing before the Steam launch!


We waited for Steam, we waited for the fixes to Steam, I'm sure we can wait for the MM and whatever else is to come after that. O7



Well the fact that T4 can and will gear up faster than a T5 means the power vacume in T5 is not going to be as big as people fear, you just have to look at the numbers,


T4 module prices are 35KXP +20K credits. 45+22 and 55+25. T5 on the other hand are, 58+70,66+80 and 72+90.


By the time a T5 has the XP/credits for the lower, less optimal modules options, a T4 can have a high end "meta" module. T5's also have to deal with the credits as well, as a T4 will/should always have enought Credits for the modules they want, where as a T5 will get the XP for a module way before they have the credits.



Absolutely understand your take on things.


The issue I have is that as much as one thing isn't as bad as another, they are both still in the game, they will both still have an affect on the player base. Moving it will not address the grind issue, and it is that loooong (another name for a donkey) process that causes players to get bored and leave through lack of progress.


It was commented on before I joined the forum, commented on whilst I've been a member of the forums, has been reflected in the low player numbers (lets hope the new players from Steam will stay) and will probably be reported on after I leave. O7


Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-233768) said:


A fresh T4 will gear up faster than a fresh T5 as T4 modules are cheaper. You need 60k+ for "cheap" T5 modules, and then the the more costly ones are 70K+ with a 90K credit cost. The MM will also balance squads correctly with "veteran player" squads only facing other "veteran" player squads. As opposed to the (So I've been told) any squad of any player level and size vs squad of any player level and size.


So let's see how it all pans out before we start tellingthe devs they are doingit wrong, I'm not saying I don't agree it's not "just moving the problem" because I believe it is. But if the MM actually dose it's job, then it should be just fine.



'Let's see how it all pans out', that sent a shiver down the spine, as I'm sure certain people said the same thing before the Steam launch!


We waited for Steam, we waited for the fixes to Steam, I'm sure we can wait for the MM and whatever else is to come after that. O7

All your points are very valid and have merit. Unfortunately for me it does not take away the fact that I'm getting a big cheesy grin and a thumbs up about what they are doing is so great and:



  1. Part of what they are doing is correcting the mistakes they made in the first place.

  2. Some of those mistakes were made even with much input from the community who were worried about such a thing happening (the disappointing Steam launch).

  3. That they have merely moved the issue to another area (albeit the gap is smaller as SAD stated O7).

  4. That absolutely nothing seems to have been done regarding the grind that could be a massive step in the right direction and allow people to play on more even terms, making the game rely more on the skill of the player rather than the perks.


Ridiculon, you are absolutely right in regards to allowing new players breathing space; as are you with single players vs clans Sky O7


Since the game was released on Steam I have 13 'friends' on the friends list, after a couple of weeks I can see they are at the same place captain level wise and basically haven't come back (anyone says it's because of me and I will hunt you down lol! ).
I am so disappointed because I just don't think this game will make it now (for me anyway), it captured my interest but hasn't captured my heart/loyalty. Progress is soo slow, I finally get a tier IV that I still need to upgrade (so will take months) and they give me the thumbs up and say 'hey you can go against tier V now' lol.


I don't even know what joy is in store with the tier buffing system that the dev who was responsible for it was trying to explain. Either he just didn't put it across well or.......and I hope this really isn't the case.......it will end up being a situation that is designed to make you dip into your pockets (as I suppose the grind is supposed to do). The only issue is, history has shown people have left than see it out.


I do appreciate you taking the time to read my rant and share your thoughts O7

So having looked at the YouTube update it seems that the devs have listened about the differences between the tiers!


Really! If you were listening you would have got that the difference wasn't solely tier 3 against tier 4 so much in that a poorly outfitted new tiered ship in TIER 3 OR 4 was no match for a fully kitted out higher tier ship 3 vs 4, 4 vs 5!


All you've done is changed stuff around so all those people in game chat crying out for Legendary matches every single time I log into the game, can now get a game because you are forcing tier 4s into Legendary. Why do you think it was hard to get a Legendary game? Because Tier 4s wouldn't go up to Legendary because of the gap.


How do you feel being a new tier 4 in a match against fully kitted Tier 5s will be any different than a new Tier 3 against a kitted out Tier 4?


Have to say I stopped the video there to type this rant; I only hope and prey that you have at least made the grind significantly less so that this gap difference that you have not really addressed but merely moved, is not something that will last long.


Seriously, seeing the video full of happy smiley people saying hey we delivered a bit of a pile of steam at Steam launch, but don't worry, be happy because we're cleaning it up is really disappointing.