Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-176499)

I agree the Oberon lines need more speed orientated modules, but they do have there own unique play style. They don't need storm milliles, that's not a Dreadnought module.

Really? So it's written on the box and you can't read it...

What does "specializes in pummeling ships with its Plasma Cannons from medium range, then disengaging to avoid heavy fire" means exactly? Not a way to play a Jutland not even a Chernobog.

What is or not a Dreadnought module is not for us to decide but developers, at the end of the day, those have a specific role to play in the game and need a specific short range defense as deterent vs Corvettes, which of course they do not have at the moment.

Their Tech Three is noither organised for their role nor does it have the options for funcionalities which would let them do that, then considering the number of options existing in a Tech three, i hardly see how it would be restrictive.

About the Jutland i play it and yes its main guns are rubish but it have 80000HP and good repeaters guns, Vultures, Flechettes and Light Missiles on top of which you have Plasma Broadside and Anti Missile Lasers at the same time.

Meaning it's designed to tank with a healer around it, but retains good defense and offense capabilities, it is not the case of the Oberons who need to stay maneuvrable to have a chance to survive and play their role to the full.

Those ships should be able to detach from healballs in support of other types without having to become XP feeders for Corvettes, they need their Jump Drives too for evading maneuvers, right now, the only proper defense they have while retaining offensive capabilities are the Flechettes and those can easily be lost by Corvettes.

In my Vigo i have fired both Flechettes and Storm at Corvettes and right now, they still manage to lose them, so what does that make of an Oberon Dreadnough then? A damned turkey.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-176499)

I agree the Oberon lines need more speed orientated modules, but they do have there own unique play style. They don't need storm milliles, that's not a Dreadnought module.

Really? So it's written on the box and you can't read it...

What does "specializes in pummeling ships with its Plasma Cannons from medium range, then disengaging to avoid heavy fire" means exactly? Not a way to play a Jutland not even a Chernobog.

What is or not a Dreadnought module is not for us to decide but developers, at the end of the day, those have a specific role to play in the game and need a specific short range defense as deterent vs Corvettes, which of course they do not have at the moment.

Their Tech Three is noeither organised for their role nor does it have the options for funcionalities which would let them do that, then considering the number of options existing in a Tech three, i hardly see how it would be restrictive.

About the Jutland i play it and yes its main guns are rubish but it have 80000HP and good repeaters guns, Vultures, Flechettes and Light Missiles on top of which you have Plasma Broadside and Anti Missile Lasers at the same time.

Meaning it's designed to tank with a healer around it, but retains good defense and offense capabilities, it is not the case of the Oberons who need to stay maneuvrable to have a chance to survive and play their role to the full.

Those ships should be able to detach from healballs in support of other types without having to become XP feeders for Corvettes, right now, the only proper defense they have while retaining offensive capabilities are the Flechettes and those can easily be lost by Corvettes.

In my Vigo i have fired both Flechettes and Storm at Corvettes and right now, they still manage to lose them, so what does that make of an Oberon Dreadnough then? A damned turkey.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-176494)

Specific builds and modules would mean less dynamic play, it would also mean that you know whatvthe other ship is packing from the word go.

How so?

Why would a Lorica be penalised with only 56.25% HP of a Jutland having to use modules that better suits the Jutland and be played in healballs?

Those ship lines have a specific characteristic attached to them it's not only obvious but also logical that they need their own specific Teach Threes but also modules, a Jutland is not going to leave the healball in support of Corvettes and Destroyers.

A Lorica is designed to do just that, in the same fashion as the Gravis, it has the same role, is designed the same way Quote: > light, streamlined tank specializes in pummeling ships with its Plasma Cannons from medium range, then disengaging to avoid heavy fire.

https://i.imgur.com/AxbdxWg.jpg

That's how those two ships are designed and should be used, their mobility allow them to do it (in theory and by design goal), closing in, engaging, offering fast fire support, disengage.

So at the end of the day, not having a proper short range/first layer of defense vs Corvettes (Storm) or having to chose between extra HP and mobility (Armour Amplifier/Jump Drive), offensive fire power and secong layer of Defense/Offensive Missiles and Long Range Torpedoes (Flechette/Slugs) is affecting it a lot more than a Jutland which is a lot less likely to be killed by a Corvettes, simply because it doesn't move away from the healers as much and have nearly twice the amount of HP to spare.

Furthermore, the Jutland does rather well tanking using its Repeaters Guns because once again it can tank with 80000HP as long as it has a healer aroung it, it will cause a lot of damages and have a high chance of survival.

NOT the Lorica, and its main guns also aremn't realyl top, although not as bad as the Jutland they suffer from horendous dispersion, so their effective range is limited, not good for their intended role either.

So if anyone wants to use the Oberons to their full potential they need specificaly designed Teach Threes, and the addition of Storm Missiles which are missing now.

Knowing or not what the other ships has is not an issue, if people have the choice they might not chose what you think they would plus, they still have to grind their ships...

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-176484)

Every game whey you have builds, didn't think I needed to explain that that part.

In every game you have campers and their "tactics" are exactly the SAME.

They camp and force the other team to bring the game to them, meaning being more vulnerable and there is little skills into that. was the same at WoW and campers used to score high in kills using HE and fire with little risks.

In every game tools are given to players by developers who think they give equal strength to everyone, but camping negates that idea completely.

Artillery is a skill, if you can't shoot and need Stasis and Tractor Beams, then you're going to have to camp in a healball, and everyone who is going to try to break the lock with a hit and run is going to be an easy target.

Since Stasis and Tractor Beams replace functionalities better used for a dynamic playstyle, it just makes the game more static, it's not difficult to understand but easy to deny.

Builds are not giving equality in this game since there aren't equal strength between ship lines, this shouldn't be explained either.

Best example is the way a Destroyer can use Storms in a hit and run, one is mobile enough to go away with it today while firing from 2000m, myself i dont play the Vindicta and do it with the Vigo from 3000 where it's already hard.

Tractor Beam have a range of 4000m, Stasis 1200, so i noticed players using the beam more often making disengaging a lot harder, since my cooldown time for Jump Drive is 20sec it leaves a healball plenty of time to kill me.

That's why we really need a specific build Modules/Weapons and Tech Three for each ship line, some beneficiate from the actual modules better than others especially in a heallball.

Lando Calrissian#2323 posted (#post-176452)

I did some testing yesterday, launching my Drain Torpedo from 2.4 km and Storms from 2.0 km; this didn't really affect the Vindicta, but with the Vigo it became nearly suicide (<20% health after attack) or actual suicide almost every (>80%) single time.

True, 2000m it's a hard deal for the Vigo, but if the Storm becomes a true short range defense system it's a fair deal.

In most cases the real issue is Target Discrimination, Aquisition and Lock-On, especially when you try to deal with a healball and target the healer.

We need better all of the above with Missiles (whatever they are) plus visual clues (Target boxes), right now the process is just too slow and unreliable to allow for a real hit and run tactic to be played with the Vigo.

I'm sure that fi we could see with more accuracy which ship we target or aquier it before lock-on it would heal a great deal.

I don't have a Vindicta so i can't tell, but as it is today, i fired both Flechettes and Storm from point blank range after lock-on at a Corvettes it still managed to lose them all.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-176465)

Lando Calrissian#2323 posted (#post-176452)

I did some testing yesterday, launching my Drain Torpedo from 2.4 km and Storms from 2.0 km; this didn't really affect the Vindicta, but with the Vigo it became nearly suicide (<20% health after attack) or actual suicide almost every (>80%) single time.

The balance change has changed what was once viable, to utter garbage. It happens with every game like this. The balance changed a new meta is born.

Viable for campers certainly...

Did you miss the part where they said they wanted to change THIS?

What happens to every game like this is campers telling the same Disneylandish stories when it happens.

DN_KareRaisu#3187 posted (#post-176422)

Thanks a bunch for the feedback! Always good to hear what you guys have to say about specific changes. Although, like Hardy mentioned... ideally it's done without attacking each other

The 'please buff instead of nerf' sentiment is dear to my heart, as I completely agree. In most cases.

Quite frankly, the Nuke Salvo, Repair Autobeams, and Kinetic Armor Amplifier were utterly broken. I understand the frustration when one of your favourite modules gets the nerf bat, but you want the game to be a fair competition, right? We'll be keeping a close eye on these modules as there's always a chance of over-correction and knock-on effects are something we'll be increasingly vigilant of.

For example, maybe the Nuke Salvos can get a damage increase in 1.11 because we observe that the removal of Tier 2 ships from Veteran in 1.10 makes instakilling not as big an issue as it is in 1.9.5.

Other nerfs, like the Storm Missiles, are born from the alternatives being pretty good, but everyone uses the Storm Missiles anyway. Plasma and Purge Rams feel good enough, so buffing them to match the Storm Missiles seems like an unnecessary change. We'll keep an eye on it, and hopefully Tempest Missiles with their usability improvements (and Missile Repeaters with their bug fixes) will be a more viable option.

Many things were nerfed, and buffed, with standardization passes. If we see problems emerge due to these changes, we can reconsider which modules are exceptions to the rule. Let's wait and see what the standardization does. I heavily disagree with the notion that standardizing these modules is 'dumbing down' the game... most of the variance between tiers was token at best and didn't create any meaningful positive dynamics in playing the game. Now that everyone knows the ranges of certain modules, the level of play can increase as it's based on pure skill rather than remembering 10 variants of the same module.

One thing we're definitely going to look into is the power of Artillery Cruisers and the counters to them. Thanks for raising it

Balance changes will be done much more frequently than in the past, so keep the feedback coming. Who knows, maybe a week from now you'll have found a way to make Artillery Pods the new flavor of the month and Nuke Salvo nerfs are the least of your concerns!

I think the main thing is the balance between HP, mobility and firepower of each ship.

If one ship is designed for tanking then it can use a specific set of modules, another ship more mobile but with less HP will beneficiate from a different set of modules.

If anything you already have the right ship lines do adjust their own specific funcionalities and allow their players to exploit their full potential, it just need to be made more specific for each line.

We raised the issue of the Lorica main guns dispersion for example, but short range defense is also a must if you want to play it as a mobile Dreadnought in support of Corvettes and Destroyerts doing their hit and runs.

DN_Hardy#5317 posted (#post-176093)

Hey folks,

Thanks for your opinions so far. We will walk through it and potentially make some adjustments here and there. However, I would like to remind you that we want this conversation to be constructive and want you guys and gals to stay nice and friendly. So please refrain from any personal offences and keep your good manners.

Besides that: We are going to adjust the balancing with every major update and nothing in this list is cast in stone. When it comes to "nerfing" we intend to touch only the things that are truly and extremely imbalanced like e.g. the Nuke Salvos, the Repair Auto-Beams and the Kinetic Armor Amplifier.

We will see how the stuff we changed feels and behaves in the real world and readjust if necessary. This is an ongoing process so please stay constructive. Only together we can find the right middle ground for these things.

All the best,

DN_Hardy

Good thing you do that.

If you read this please, could you try to give each ship line the tools they need to be used to their full potential to bring more diversity to the game?

Right now it's way too biased toward heal camping, OK you try to change that but the most mobile ships doesn't always beneficiate from the actual Tech Three and choices in fonctionality, in particular the Dreadnoughts, with Lorica in mind.

We should be able to offer fast attack/support to our Corvettes and Destroyers without turning into XP feeders to Corvettes (Storm as Defense system), loosing mobility (Jump Drive) or offensive capability (Long range weapons, including main guns which have an horrible dispersion at the moment).

I made some suggestions here in case you guys missed it.

https://www.greybox.com/dreadnought/en/forum/topic/97565/?page=1#post-170878

Appart for that, this game have a huge potential by virtue of the quality of work already done, graphics, programming etc, you just need to fine tune the whole thing to give the game the diversity in playstyle the ship lines already have the potential for.

Captain Nemo#8277 posted (#post-176087)

Ok, whatever, I just won a game where you heal ball and I was the solo healer in my team. I guess that's a lie too if you weren't there

Healer exp will be an issue, when people get on Koschei and have no modules to play with, they will cry about the grind. They already cry about it even now. Not like I care though, I have enough exp on both of my healers

Yeah sure, you can go bang chest now boy... LOL.

And your vette killing 15 makes all your admirers in my team bad players is that it?

For someone who got killed only once vs 2 for each of us you didn't do that much better, this suggest to me that you really have an eyesight issue, or have been playing virtual too long and lost touch with reality. Or both.

Anyway, here one example of what is going on with heal camping and corvettes today, perfectly on-topic since developers addressed those issues...

At the start of the game, i team-chated "You can brawl, i'll go wherever you go but i am quiet slow, i dont have jump drive" hoping to see some dynamic playing.

Result? TWO static healballs with a slight difference, they killed 4 healers (2X2) we killed only 1...

One was smaller and some of its elements detached to get us two twice, with the Corvettes zooming through us (1) getting their kills, and at the end, the usual tada blaming me while scoring only 30 point higher in a Dreadbnought, but that's just a detail, too too funny...

https://i.imgur.com/x1NHBFJ.jpg

So at the end of the day, it's not only the healer that makes the difference it's the ability of the players they heal to use that for scoring, AND the ability of those who doesn't camp in the healball to score as well, now killing 15 playing a vette with appearent ease made a difference, no doubt.

Using Repairs Autobeams, droping pods (in range) boosting beams to keep some alive a little longer is not so difficult, positioning is harder but the change will make the whole thing a lot more chalenging, let's just hope developers will have a look at Healers XP and rebalance it accordingly.

(1) 15 kills, are you kidding me? So All those in my team were bad eh Nemo?

(2) scoring 1590 with a healer denying healball is O.P? Like you had no healballs in your previous games?

More of the usual reality denial...