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HepTagoN#7086 posted (#post-123847)


Would you look at this "pls pls dont nerf mah poor ship" fest. Eheheh.

Amount of effor you put in defending your ship says a lot. About your broken ship AND you as well.

Actualy you might belive in your words, in that case in wouldnt be so bad. Igonrance is leser evil than intended charlantry.


Etc. etc.



There's a difference between saying "don't nerf my ship" and having enough experience to know whether or no it is overpowered. I have about 20 hours playtime on each class with ~40 on Dreadnoughts, and run at a 4.5/1 K/D ratio. I do no better in Vettes than I do on any other class unless the enemy team has too much Arty for their own good; if anything I do better in a facetanking Lorica than I do in my Vette. So if I can run a 19/0 game in each of the ship classes, and do so with about the same frequency in each, does that mean they're all OP? No, it just means that this game is about SKILL.


The reason people can't deal with Vettes is that they don't build for it and don't practice their aim and are also not attentive, not because they're inherently overpowered. Anyone with the right build is going to instantly kill Vettes, no questions asked. Mines, well aimed Arty, literally any status effect, all lethal. My Lorica runs Stasis Pulse which is basically a death sentence to any Vette within 2km, and there are plenty of other modules out there that have similar results. Point being there are plenty of ways to kill Vettes; if you either don't bother to use them or aren't skilled enough to do it successfully, then that's on you. Either make a new build or practice more, but anyone who has a wide range of experience in this game can tell you Vettes are no more or less powerful than any other ship when used correctly.


Also,

- Vettes are far from unhittable even with ping. I hit them all the time with the Lorica, Arty, Vindicta, and especially Tac Cruisers.

- They have no "tanking aspects" beyond about 3 seconds of 100% block which they can use to GTFO when things go wrong. Without that, they'd be worthless because they'd have absolutely no way out.

- Not only is 1.2km not "much bigger" than 800m, but if a Vette wants to stay out of that range while shooting a Destroyer, they have to either stay still at that range or slowly and awkwardly steer around it, which leaves them incredibly vulnerable.

- If auto-aim were 100% reliable then Vettes would be absolutely pointless. It's there to help hit slowly drifting targets whose movements you can't honestly see well, not to do the work for you.


Finally, if you're going to argue with someone who clearly has a good idea what they're saying and says it coherently, the least you could do is try to accurately represent what that person said, not just call their data BS and then go on in half-structured sentences about why they're somehow evil. And don't put words in their mouths- Spork never once said Destroyers are OP and need a nerf, only that they are quite strong and an effective counter to Vettes which may need a bit more attention. And I agree- ever notice how the second you pull up a Destroyer with Storm Missiles you instantly win games? Because most other people have. Anyway, that's another rant for another day. I've made just about every point about the issue that I have to make so if you're just going to yell that I'm an evil liar of something then go nuts- you won't likely get a response.


Also wow. A lot of people put out posts in the time it took me to write this lol

The reason you often see T4 ships at the top is not that they're overpowered (though they are obviously stronger than T3s), it's often because they're more experienced. By T4 most players have had enough time to work out the game pretty well; I myself have all five Oberon T4s, and am able to perform very well in not only those, but also in my T3s (where I still almost always score in the top 3) because I know how the game works and how to play to my ship's strengths. The difference between T3 and T4 is not very large; it mostly just allows a wider variety of builds. My point is that this game is pretty well balanced in my opinion, and that performance boils down to skill more than anything else. That being said, T4 is where you get Storm Missiles and those things are just ludicrously overpowered.


Another thing to consider is that T4s aren't always on top- they will also get put up against T5s. Or at least they will once enough people own T5s to make Legendary battles actually happen.

I completely agree- I've got tons of games on Vettes and you've pretty much highlighted their strengths and weaknesses perfectly. The one thing I would add is that there IS one thing on Vettes that is OP: Drain Torpedoes. Good range, accurate, and almost guarantees a kill. I use them exclusively on all three Vette classes. Nerf their range a bit and I think Vettes might be a bit less frustrating to deal with. It's honestly the only nerf I can think of that wouldn't completely ruin the entire class.


Aersdri#5059 posted (#post-123799)


Damage, range and cooldown on most missiles and torpedoes, I must admit, are balanced quite decently. Even when taking ModRecycler into consideration.

But reliability - well, it's mostly SH..T on ALL but few modules:



Guess I didn't specifically point that out but yeah that's what I meant when I said they barely hit anything- they just have such poor tracking and long deployment times (especially Dreadnought torpedoes) that actually hitting the target at all is pretty unlikely. Thanks for the note! (Though I have to disagree that most modules are useless- a lot are, yes, but most of them fit somewhere to at least one variant of that ship's class, even if they are very specific in your use. To me, the problem is that there are several modules that are obviously better or more versatile and therefore overshadow the rest.)


Also, Xemnas, even if you DO hit with Tempests/Vultures, it's usually a full 20 seconds or so after you fired them, meaning your target has all the time in the world to either evade, bank energy for shields, take cover, or do whatever else to mitigate the damage. Even if they do hit, they usually don't affect the battlefield. I can deal with that issue on the Vultures because they're only a secondary module and pack a pretty good punch if they manage to hit, but Tempests are a primary and should have more impact than they do.

I've given my two cents on the issue so I'm going to leave it there- I don't have anything else to say that hasn't been said. Just note that I have a lot of playtime on this game across all classes, and I know how both play and deal with Corvettes well- I'm not just talking out of my you-know-where.

There are a lot of options out there for missiles and torpedoes, especially between Destroyers and Dreadnoughts, but some are far more useful than others. These are my specific notes for different varieties of missile and torpedo modules available across different ship classes.


Storm Missiles (Dest)- First thing's first, these things are ridiculous. Almost 30k damage from 3000 meters at T4 on a 50 second cooldown, plus they travel quickly and all fire at the same instant. Even with shields up, these monsters usually kill anything but a T4 Dreadnought without question, much more so when you throw a Drain Torpedo first. I'd either reduce the range, increase the cooldown, or reduce the damage. As is they're just too reliable and overshadow all other primary missile/torpedo modules at T4 besides the Goliath. Compare them to Flashpoint Torpedo Salvo, which does a max of 20k damage at 1200 meters, with a 40 second cooldown, plus they can be dodged much more reliably.


Goliath Torpedo (Dest)- I don't mind this one too much because it's easily dodged, but in recruit matches it is drastically overused and overeffective. The T2 variant can one-shot a few T1 ships, most of which are completely new players who will have a very tough time dodging/blocking it- it's just too harsh on newbies. I think the T2 Goliath should do 12500 damage, so it can't one shot T1 Tac Cruisers.


Missile Repeater (Dest)- Again, I don't have significant issues with this one. I just think it gets overshadowed by Storms and even Tempests. If it only fired one cluster missile with low damage but a low cooldown, I think it would distinguish it more from similar options as a sustained DPS option, and lend some credence to the term "Repeater".


Tempest/Vulture Missiles (Dest/Dread)- I find the balance on these ones to be alright in terms of damage, range, and cooldown. However, their tracking is so bad that nine times out of ten they fail to hit anything that isn't a stationary Jutland. A slight wiggle from most ships is all it take for them to miss completely, and if you just scoot back and forth, up and down, you can easily make them circle around you until they blow up on their own. Or you can just outrun them because they're so damned slow. I'd up their flight characteristics just a scooch to make them relevant, but it's not really a big issue.


Light Missiles (Dread)- These completely overshadow other Dreadnought secondary modules. They're fast, have good damage, track well, have good range, and decent cooldown. And they're not overpowered, the other options are just bad. Neither Dreadnought torpedo option ever actually hits anything that isn't another stationary dreadnought, plus they have long cooldowns, Vultures (as I've mentioned) also never hit anything, and the Triad Pod is just useless. The only other option are Flechettes, but they have a 10 second fire time at T4 and are close range, so Light Missiles are just way more reliable. The other Dreadnought missiles/torpedoes should have at least slightly better tracking, Flechettes shouldn't take so long to fire, and Light Missiles should take longer to fire than they currently do.


Weaponbreaker Torpedo (Vette)- I have literally never hit anything with it, nor have I ever been hit by it. It has a 900 meter range so it should at least track well within it.


Drain Torpedoes (Vette)- These things are basically the be-all-end-all of Vette secondaries. They have the longest range at 2400 meters, do some damage, and render your target defenceless. I think their range should be dialed down to make them more risky without bringing down the reward, while the Heavy Torpedo range should be longer to fill the gap and to differentiate it more from the Torpedo Salvo.


Status Missiles (All)- I don't mind status missiles at all, frankly. Something just needs to be done about the dancing missiles bug- half the time you use any of these they either dance around when they get close or blow up just short of the target without actually hitting them. So just bug fixes, not balance changes.

I've played this game for a while now and had a lot of time and experience testing different classes, with different loadouts and modules, and here are a few notes I have about Dreadnought modules in general (mostly relevant to the T4-5 range when all modules are unlocked). Also I don't know how to tab paragraphs in this thing or bold or anything like that so sorry for the monotony.


PRIMARIES

The only issues I find here are Scattergun Broadsides; they're pretty much useless. I tried them with several builds and wanted so much to make them work, but they just don't. They take too long to fire, offsetting most of the difference in cooldown between them and Ballistic Broadsides, plus their insanely limited range means they almost never have a chance to be fired at all. Additionally, they're far less potent against Corvettes than Plasma Broadsides. I'd up the range to 1200 meters and make them fire faster, to make them the real close range DPS option.


SECONDARIES

Light Missiles- They're pretty much the only relevant secondary for Dreadnoughts, and I've tried them all. Their balance between range, speed, damage, and cooldown makes all other options irrelevant, as each other option has some glaring issue. Vultures never hit anything because they're so slow, the torpedoes take so long to launch and track so poorly that they, too, never hit anything, and Flechettes take 10 seconds to fire off for some reason, which is absurdly long for a missile system intended for close range and rapid flight time. Light missiles fire fairly quickly, deal good damage, track very well, have good range, and have a low cooldown. I would make Dreadnought torpedoes deploy a bit faster and track a bit better, Flechettes should take at most 6 seconds to fire all missiles (Light Missiles should take longer than Flechettes is the main point), and Vultures should track a bit better, especially when they get close to the target. I tried to make the other options work on my Lorica but Light Missiles seem to be the only one that actually hits things with any reliability.


Triad Pods- They do nothing. Make them do something. They're flashy but completely ineffective.


PERIMETER

I have no issues here- each option is useful to the right build(s) and none really overshadow the others.


INTERNAL

Assault Thrusters- I like them and they can be useful but the second your ship nicks anything they turn off, plus you almost completely lose the ability to turn when using them and are stuck flying forward (you actually can't stop without disabling the boost first). Warp Jump is almost always better for getting place to place, especially at T4 when you can jump straight to any target within 5km, regardless of where your ship is facing. Manoeuvrability should be a bit better while using this, and it shouldn't be so sensitive to contact in how it turns itself off.


Endurance mode- I don't honestly know why it exists. If, when you activated it, you remained at the same percentage health as you already were at, then I'd be on board, but as is it's pretty useless given the nature of DPS battles. If you're being healed faster than you're taking damage, you don't need the extra max health, and if you're taking damage faster than you're being healed, you'll never get to use that max health anyway. It's pretty much just wasted space when you consider how useful the other internals are.


ARMOUR AMPLIFIER- This is my favourite Dreadnought module in the game, but for some reason it gets considerably worse as you upgrade it. I still use the T3 version on my Lorica, and if I could use the T2, I would. The cut in duration as you rank up is WAY to significant, especially when you consider that the cooldown only drops by 10 seconds from rank 2 to 5. In a prolonged battle, assuming consistent damage over time and you have Armour Amplifier up as frequently as possible, here's the math:



Rank 2: 80% reduction for 15 seconds on a 35 second cooldown. Net reduction of 24%. (As an added bonus, you are able to recharge most of your energy while the module is active such that you can shield when it goes down, thereby further increasing your damage absorption.)

Rank 3: 85% reduction for 12.5 seconds on a 33 second cooldown. Net reduction of 23.3%.

Rank 4: 90% reduction for 10 seconds on a 30 second cooldown. Net reduction of 22.5% (At this point you don't have time to charge you shields much over the duration of the module, meaning you will take much more damage after it wears off if you didn't already have energy banked.)

Rank 5: 99% reduction for 5 seconds on a 25 second cooldown. Net reduction of 16.5%. (Over 5 seconds you can barely charge any energy, so the rank 5 armour amp offers no time to regain shields.)

(This is my math btw I just put it in this box to make it stand out)



So basically, not only does the net absorption drop, especially at rank 5, but you also have no time to regen energy. The way I use Armour Amplifier is this: I use shields until I'm just about out of energy, then activate the module and drop shields. Over the duration (at rank 3 on the Lorica), I regain most of my energy over the 12.5 second duration. Once that wears off, I reactivate my shields. If I upgrade to rank 4, my ability to regen energy is cut a bit (down 2.5 seconds), so I'll take more damage than I would if I stuck with rank 3. At rank 5, I can't really regen anything so if I'm not out of trouble by the time the module wears off, I'm boned.


My main point is this: Dreadnoughts are usually employed to tank damage for the team over as long a time as they possibly can. This means that 15 seconds of 80% reduction is far more useful than 5 seconds of 99% reduction, both for yourself and the team, as it allows you to soak up damage for a longer time and keep enemy fire focused on you. With 99% reduction, a smart enemy will just retarget to someone else because they're doing nothing shooting at you, putting your teammates in more danger. Plus the duration is so low that you'll likely have to duck for cover when it wears off as you won't have shields, further reducing your tanking effectiveness.


I would keep the duration across all levels locked in at somewhere from 10 to 12.5 seconds, and scale absorption from 75-80% at rank 2 to 85-90% at rank 5, while maintaining the current cooldown scaling. I think this is a good way to give the rank 2 module the slight nerf I think it could use, and to make the rank 5 version actually superior.


Anyway, those are all of my balancing notes on Dreadnought Modules. Thanks for reading and let me know if you agree.

Hm. My original post seems to have vanished so I'm going to go ahead and split it into two topics- don't know what happened but all right lol


Hell_rabbit#0438 posted (#post-123737)


Corvettes health is almost equivalent to artillery cruiser's health, but corvettes has enough maneuverability to avoid fire. Lower shield absorbation to 95% is not enough, 75% or 80% - would be nice.



Artillery Cruisers also rely on distance to protect them, while Corvettes only have their speed and shields. Nerfing Vette shields that much would practically make them useless, as they would ONLY be able to fight targets one-on-one, and even then it'd be sketchy. The goal of a Corvette is to both pick off Artillery Cruisers (they have no other reliable counter as they sit 6000 meters away and have extreme damage potential) and to harass enemy clusters by going in, dropping damage, shielding up, and getting out ASAP. If the shields didn't have at least 95% blocking ability, Corvettes would be completely unable to do the latter job and so would have almost no versatility as a class. There are already tons of counters to Corvettes out there, such as any Stasis effect, flak guns, amped up Tac Cruiser beams, accurate Arty fire, and Dreadnought broadsides.


Greatheart#0108 posted (#post-123736)


These are all great points and it's nice to see you've done your math. I agree with all of your post, especially Storm Missiles. 30k dmg before you add in "Module Amp" briefing for an additional 30% damage is a bit crazy.


I noticed you haven't mentioned Drain Missiles in your post. Are you happy with where they are at? Personally I find them too overpowering. Instantly negate a Dreads ability to tank, make a Healer have zero shields as an attack comes in etc. In another thread it was discussed about capping them at 50-60% energy drain, what are your thoughts on this?



I haven't given them too much thought yet because I don't use them as much, but I think the drain effect is a bit too strong in general, yes. I don't mind Drain Missiles so much because they can be dodged an/or shot down, plus you have time to see them coming and plan accordingly. What I find broken is the Drain Pulse, because there's no defence against it and it can bring down an entire team. For that reason, I think that capping energy drain at 50-60% per hit seems fair, as drain missiles/torpedoes usually fire 2 and if both hit you'll get the full drain, but if only one hits you still have at least something, while the drain pulse would be way less oppressive as it only ticks once. All that said, I was considering making another thread dedicated to status effect balance in general. I have some issues with Drains, Disruptors, and Stasis, and this post already covered a lot of ground. My main concern here was just the raw damage missiles/torpedoes, as that was what tied in with the Dreadnought modules- adding all the status ones and this post would just be way too long!


Thanks for the comment!