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Kiiyor

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Devouring_One#8361 posted (#post-41312)


Assault warp is certainly overpowered and more than a little ridiculous. It combines monstrous damage with shield bypass and a warp, meaning that vettes that use it often don't need their other abilities to kill more fragile ships or those on low health; they just need to get up close and hit the 1 key and they get a kill.


Despite what the fellow above me alleges, it is more than possible for a corvette using this ability to get in close without burning his escapes. You do not need to use afterburners to get in the abilities usable range because there are navigation officer briefings that will suffice to get you close enough when used in conjunction with cover. Furthermore, since assault warp is itself a movement ability, it can be used as both initiation and escape simotanously; the damage it deals means firing other weapons is often unnecessary for its preferred targets, so it just has to warp through its target and then flee, burning its afterburners if it needs too.



I agree.


As much as I loathe complaining about things being overpowered when there are ways to avoid them, In this case, awareness isn't remotely enough of a counter (IMHO) to dismiss the almighty power ABW grants to even a moderately competent captain. Pretty much every 'Vette has mobility and access to cover enough to close with an enemy relatively unmolested, even without the cloak - which is pretty much a crutch anyway. Then there's the Kreshnik, which scoffs at the notion of cover as it casually strolls towards you and melts your face.


The reality is, if an ABW vette wants to kill you, you're probably dead, no matter how much attention you give it as it approaches. This itself isn't necessarily an issue, as lots of other ships can YOLO into an entire team and take out a target if they prepare well (Ram/Storm missile Vindicta, for example) but they pretty much guarantee their own death doing it. A vette has a much higher chance of making it out alive. I've been in enough matches now where an ABW vette has been called out at pretty much every stage of it's attack run and has still managed to dump it's payload, delete it's target, and escape, or at least take up the entire focus of the entire team while it's escaping.


"But what about hard counters and status effects, Kiiyor?"


If you're close enough to Scramble, or Drain pulse, or Blast pulse, then it's close enough to ABW, and at close range, ABW is #1, everything else #2 or lower. If you try to dissuade it with disrupts, or missiles, it just needs to get to cover and wait, and then you're out of deterrents when it starts it's run.


Heck, even dreadnoughts are vulnerable to it, as shields are useless.


I've heard people say that if you position your team with lots of open ground between you and likely vette approach points, you're more likely to survive. I've also heard people say that having all your ships concentrate fire on the vette can work.


I'd say that If a single enemy forces an entire team to shift their tactics drastically to even hope to counter it, it's not balanced.


I think if you take away the shield pierce, it will be much more manageable.


Stroop#9800 posted (#post-41351)


...I can understand and empathize with Kiiyor point of view, though I think he/she knows maybe it was a little misdirected on this occasion...



It was a little misdirected. I used the hallowed technique of using a milder example of something to get up on a soapbox to describe my feelings against more extreme examples not necessarily related to the OP.


I got carried away attempting to advise caution with the amount of hostility being thrown around here and on discord by veterans, as it had already (in my own experience trying to get my own friends involved) driven away players that might otherwise want to be a part of the out-of-game community.


What I was trying to do was explain that I think it's not the best way to try and influence opinion when people base their arguments on a claim to speak for the majority. I can understand when people are frustrated, but claiming you speak for everyone, or worse, that your idea of everyone consists only of the group of people that feel the same way, is kind of like saying anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't part of the discussion or doesn't have a valid opinion, even if that wasn't the intent of the post.


Things blew up a little, people are passionate about things, I understand, I apologize if I offended anyone unduly, I just want people to stop being dicks to each other.

This is great. I ended up selecting all the text to make it easier to read though smile


If I could offer my own small piece of Tac advice, it is this: Be Brave. You heal better the closer you are to your target, and some of the most awesome moments I had in DN were either darting close and pulling of clutch saves in my own Aion against friendles that were about to bite the dust, or being saved myself by the sudden arrival of a healer who threw caution to the wind and charged through a fusillade of fire to pull me back from certain death.


Sure, you've exceptionally vulnerable as a Tac, and you can't heal if you're dead, but sometimes you need to risk yourself a little and venture out of your comfort zone to have the best impact on your team.


Adavanter#2016 posted (#post-41298)


Hey now... no need to discredit folks who put vast hours into this. There is a reason they came to these opinions after all. Most of my team put in 500+ hours... some more than that. We've been playing since January and some before that.


Snib#1627 posted (#post-41302)


Dismissing negative feedback from players who showed a lot of dedication to the game over a long time as them being bittervets and jaded individuals is about as unhelpful as if I would call you a fanboi.


Deal with the arguments being brought forward, not the people making them.



I'm not suggesting that negative feedback be dismissed at all. Negative feedback is fundamental to a game's success. I'm suggesting that there's a difference between negative feedback, and vitriol.


My main worry is that bittervets, if they stray too far into bitter, are often discounted entirely. I've seen in in MWO, Hawken, LoL, WoT and even in younger games like WoWS... where those with great experience and valid input shoot themselves in the foot by becoming far too hostile to have a civil discussion with. It gets to the point where developers stop listening to them, because there's nothing to be gained in discussion that isn't discussion at all; when a typical bittervet can be relied upon to phrase even their most simple questions as an attack that requires a defensive answer.


Instead of "Can you explain why ..." or "What's your thought process behind ..."

It becomes "Why haven't you fixed this yet?" or "Who the heck came up with this idea?"

Or "I know this new system is coming, but I bet it ends up being just like this other unrelated fiasco"

And eventually "This is a $### system. Devs, why did you make a $### system?"


Or, my personal favourite:

Newbie: "Hi devs, i'm really enjoying this game"

Dev: "Hi, glad to hear it"

Bittervet: "OOH, A DEV, HERE IS MY LIST OF DEMANDS. HAVE AT THEE"


It's not inviting discussion. It's inviting someone to defend themselves from people who won't budge from a belief that their own position is indefensible. There's absolutely a place for this in feedback, but if it's your go-to communication method... it gets old fast, and there's a point where this stops being an invitation to discussion at all, and becomes a trite and predictable attack. Then it spreads to attacks on those who don't share the same view. Then attacks and warnings to new players.


Devs can't respond stuff like that with anything other than stuff like:



I am sorry to repeat this, I am sure you are all going to get sick of it before the end, but with the changes in the pipeline >with ...... a lot of these concerns will hopefully be ......



"But Kiiyor, that's what the devs are there for. They need to accept negative feedback, even the hateful stuff. They need a thicker skin"


Maybe. But more often than not it encourages those in the dev team who go above and beyond to scale their interaction back to the bare minimum, or distance themselves entirely from intimate discussion with the community in a place like discord and fall back on official announcements and junk like that only. Devs are only human.


SIGH.


If players are known for being toxic, people will just start treating them like they're toxic, regardless of how valid the feedback they present is. You'll start becoming the person that someone in sales or customer service complains to their partner about at the end of the day. "You wouldn't believe this guy..."


It's a shame, because there are always players that have a lot of valid feedback to give, who lose themselves in hostility, alienate the devs, and eventually other players. There were players I really respected in MWO that became so bitter that every interaction with them became... draining. It got to the point they were so notorious that even if they posted very valid feedback on the forums or in reddit, they were shouted down or downvoted into oblivion, because everyone knew them as 'that guy'.


I'm not saying we need to create a magical fairy happy land where people only say nice things. I was in the infantry for a third of my life, and I'm more than capable of sifting a valid message from a tirade, and accepting screaming as a valid communication technique. Not everyone else is though.


I'm saying that there's nothing to gain from vitriol and eventual toxicity, except alienation, and that's the direction I fear some people I really respect in this community are headed for. People on the discord read my earlier post and thought I didn't like them any more - it's kind of the opposite. Heck, I just wrote a freaking essay that likely ain't nobody got time fo, because I worry. If I had been drinking, i'd initiate uncomfortable body and eye contact and drunkenly slur that I love you guys.


Wow, I really did write an essay. If you read it all, I apologize.


thedeath#8178 posted (#post-41266)


kiiyor not bad advice except rams ignore shields



Bwah? Really? Wow, this is a case of confirmation bias from me then, as shielding always seemed to make my hits less effective, and made me more survivable. The whole shielding from followup hits makes far more sense.


Wow. Thanks for the learnin' smile

Howdy, welcome.


Having experienced your pain with ramming as I moved through the ranks, I can empathize. I will say though that the effectiveness of a ram decreases significantly as you gain levels and meet more experienced teammates, and start to understand how fragile ships are overall in the right circumstances.


While ramming starts as a very effective tactic in ships like the Athos, it becomes far more opportunistic and situational as you meet better teams. It's great against isolated targets, or vulnerable ones; you'll find that effective rammers will wait for their target to be low on energy or drained completely before they start a run, which pretty much guarantees success.


Eventually though, you'll start bouncing off ships that save energy for shields without killing them, and few ships are more vulnerable than one that failed a ram and is sitting in front of the rest of a team. Nowadays, many rammers I see struggle to end a fight on a positive kill/death ratio, even in the mighty Vindicta, now that the stupendously overpowered purge ram has been nerfed. Sure, they usually kill what they set out to, but will also die after the fact, and 1:1 kills and deaths does not win matches.


I spent a lot of time ramming. Here are things I hated:

- Missiles. Nothing sucks more than starting a run, and being greeted by a swarm of missiles. The captain has to make a hard decision: proceed and take lots of damage, or try and get to cover. Neither option is ideal.

- Shields, and the energy to maintain them. Goras, dreads + shields = BOING, no kill.

- Patient Corvettes. Start the ram, they swoop in, boom, dead.

- Clever support: Tacs that spend their time in cover and rarely expose themselves, and artillery that stays close enough to teammates and cover to make a run risky.

- Well defended teams. It's really hard to pull off a ram against a defensive team.

- PEOPLE CALLING ME OUT. A ramming ship is a priority target. Getting F'ed as you approach and being greeted with a wall of fire sucks.


Things I loved the most:

- Ships throwing missiles at things they are unlikely to hit. Just because your missiles have long range, it doesn't mean you should use them at extremes. Saving them as a defensive measure will often reward you more. Blowing them means you don't have them available to throw at me.

- Unobservant captains: approaching uncontested = awesome.

- Ships pursuing enemies too far. Om nom nom.

- Ships with no energy - even dreads: OM NOM NOM. Always try to save 50% of your energy for emergencies.

- Ships with no energy, out of position, who have blown all their cooldowns: AAARGH FEEDING FRENZY


As for artillery, I see it represented quite a lot. It's great against dreads and destroyers, and once you realize that straying too far from your team = easy death by corvettes, you're a lot more survivable. The trouble is, the Nox - it's OK at lower levels, but sucks hard against better ships. The Svarog and Grenada are death machines comparably, especially in the hands of a skilled pilot.


In fact, most of the cheesy tactics I encountered starting out have been countered with experience and module unlocks. The game rewards knowledge of game systems, threat recognition and patience, more than it does spur of the moment flying. You learn to manage your vulnerability, and try to limit the time you spend being surprised and reactionary by targets, by recognizing you're in a situation that makes you vulnerable.

I disagree, Mr OP.


Respectfully, you don't speak for me, or the majority of my friends.


This brings up my main gripe with Dreadnought, and ironically, it's not about the game - it's this: In my experience with the game so far, there's a few especially loud voices in the community that I feel are spelling a narrative that doesn't represent the majority, despite your claims to the contrary.


Though I don't have the breadth of experience you do, i'm close to the level cap, and I love the game. I have 2 accounts, as one of my friends is on deployment, and I know it's a gift he'll love when he returns. I've spoken to the devs on Discord, and they've responded, even engaged in reasonable discussion. I've thrown my beta invites around my circle of friends, and many have decided to splurge on founders packs. They're for the most part impressed with the level of interaction between players and the dev team. They're still around, going up the ranks, and while we are no means an elite team of competitive juggernauts, we're having a fat old time, and generally loving the life of a virtual space battleship captain.


There are more than a few nitpicks, but for the most part they fully understand the nature of the beta life cycle, and are able to enjoy the game despite it's typical beta issues.


You know what they don't find engaging though?


The community.


A few have dipped their toes into the forums, or reddit, or the discord to express ideas and thoughts, and the experience of a few was enough to dissuade the rest of them from participating in discussion at all. When I asked for specifics (they didn't go into much detail as we were more interested in playing the game) the general gist of it resolved around an attempt to brave the turgid waters of discord:


Ye olde friend: "Hey guys, this game is great, i'm having a blast! Here's some of the stuff I enjoy:"

Captain relentless defeatist: "Oh yeah, well, hold up there sport, you're about to be disappointed. Here, i'm going to subject you to a half hour rant about why you're wrong about enjoying the game and why it's terrible and utterly doomed to failure, and i'm going to vehemently dismiss all your opinions as you don't yet have 200 hours of gameplay under your belt."


A few others described similar experiences, and that was that.


Though I don't profess to have the same depth of experience as those of you from the alpha, my own opinion of the community so far has been this:



  • It's the relentless and bitter cynicism of a select few of the 'old guard' permeating the forums/reddit/discord that has turned many of my fellow space captains away from engaging with the community, and it's not hard to see why.


Just reading some of the comments posted in that triumvirate is draining, let alone participating in conversation. It's hard to find the energy to say positive things or even provide legitimate feedback about the game when there's an elite cadre of dissenters poised to refute and challenge people that express enjoyment about whichever things are currently on the old guard's **** list.


It's by no means all doom and gloom, but for every stalwart voice of reason there is among experienced players encouraging temperance and patience, there's another louder one having none of it.


I know the shared experience of my own group may not necessarily reflect that of the majority, but generally, what happens in these little microcosms in beta is a good indication of what will appear on a larger scale when a game goes live - and my experience points to new players being driven away from community participation by those who are more interested in gaining recruits to help them grind axes than they are in welcoming new players and allowing them to form their own opinions.


I've no problem with anybody expressing opinion, at all, but please don't claim to speak for everyone when you post yours.


Snib#1627 posted (#post-41040)


The Koschei is not better all around. It's the overall better healer (at range the Aion is actually better but that's a detail) but the worse damage dealer, that's how they balanced those three tactical cruiser variants and probably will keep balancing them.


But not every ship will go through 5 different iterations, just as with the current level gating they'll do the same with the tiers, some ships will only become available in higher tiers. So tier 1 players will likely not fight a Koschei, anyway (don't remember where it was placed on the mock-up tech trees).


Still, that doesn't mean that things will be more balanced, since starting from tier 2 you'll fight up to tier 4 opponents, so your ideas about balance are completely out of the window. Even the devs said that they want to intentionally imbalance it to create incentive and feel of progression.



Except they haven't posted any concrete information at all about which ships will be available in each tier, or which modules will be available to them. In fact, in the stream and on discord, they mentioned that the same ship may have differing roles as it spreads through the tiers - they said things like they were considering a damage dealing Koschei or a healing Craptarro for example.


We have no idea how it will be balanced, so any points about arguments being invalid are... kind of invalid, as you're arguing about a broad concept doodled in photoshop. All we have is speculation.


I'm looking forward to it. At the very least, it should help with match balance - no more level 50's throwing their overgeared juggernauts at fresh level 5's.

Well, I can see why you're concerned, but we don't really know how any of this is going to play out.



WarViper1337#8868 posted (#post-40502)


hat they are proposing now:

No more competitive play due to ship tiers.



I kind of think things will be far more competitive in tiers than they are now. At least you won't be facing level 40+ captains in your brand new level 5 Gora.



Borderline pay to win items like premium ammo/weapons.



I didn't see any mention of this at all in the stream - I could have missed it though.



Tier classes that have advantages over lower classes.



Well, maybe - especially in the middle - but we really have no idea how modules will be balanced between ships in different tiers.


I know there's an urge to seize on things that worry you about this, but really, all i'm seeing so far is speculation - I suggest we wait for real numbers and something more concrete than a mocked up placeholder screenshot of a skill tree before any pitchforks start getting sharpened.


Bear#6983 posted (#post-40275)


Please nerf healing xp!!! Right now we are getting noob after noob staying in their Aions because they think they can get the most XP that way.


Its so sad to see a bad healer let someone die because he has gone attack mode in his Aion. When the rest of their team is begging for them to actually heal...



I must respectfully disagree, venerable Mr Bear.


IMHO, healing is a pretty crucial skill to develop, and experiencing it helps you respect the role, even if you don't intend to stay in it. The allure of decent XP is a great enticement to at least try healing; a task I never really appreciated in any other game, before falling in love with it here.


I love that the often thankless job of a healer is rewarded the way it is in DN. In fact, I was prepared to drop the game when I first started playing, when I purchased a Gora and immediately hit a wall after facing higher ranked enemies and contributing very little in fights. If I hadn't started seeing Aions topping the leaderboards I would probably never have purchased one myself, and if the XP gains weren't what they were, I would probably never have persevered with the ship enough to remove it from the slot-of-regret in my hangar and go through the tedious task of trying to get it to appear in the first loadout space so it could be my flagship.


In fact, I loved the ship so much, I purchased a founders pack so I could give it an appropriately awesome paintjob and figurehead. I even mistakenly gave it the greatest name ever when I (very) drunkenly tried to rename it from "****FACE" to "Swashbuckler", and ended up with Buckswashler instead.


I started the same way a lot of Aions seem to - cowering behind buildings and developing prison b**** skills, hoping that patching up the holes in the big guys would lead them to extend some protection to me. I learned instead to really hate the tunnel vision my teammates seemed to develop, and they probably learned to hate me filling the chat window with frustrated-rapid-fire F spam after the same Fulgora gleefully lined up for an unopposed attack run on me for the eleventh time in a row.


Few things encourage the development of situational awareness more than being brutally and lethally violated by a corvette, over and over. It's a skill a lot of dreadnought (and destroyer) captains seem to lack. In a target as squishy and high value as an Aion, you either learn situational awareness, or you're forced to accept the fact that you don't have it, and I think that's good thing.


I agree though that healers who forgo the actual act of healing of are a frustrating plague - but in my experience, for every derped out spittle-flinging battle-aion I see, there are 5 others willing to abandon the transient security of their caves below a dread-turtle formation and charge madly into the fray to pull out stunning last minute heals and quite literally pull thousands of tonnes of bacon out of the fire.


Pulling off those kinds of saves isn't something that comes without practice, and (IMHO) lowering healing XP might discourage players from trying the healing lifestyle and learning to excel at it.


I think the best way to deal with neglectful healers/battle-aions (which are really the same thing) is to spam the "HEAL ME" command so much and so forcefully, so that if you DO die, there is no doubt in anyone's mind that your death is the healer's fault, even though it probably isn't. Passive aggressive heal wheel chat spam for the win!