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Theobald

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machinech#5333 posted (#post-86285)



Theobald#3611 posted (#post-85927)



fehnrir2314#1894 posted (#post-85918)


As of right now you tech tree is a game killer. You are forcing players into ships they don't want to play for not reason. I should not have to play a vette to open a sniper or play a sniper to open a dred or play a healer to open a destroyer> There is no reason for this and in the end this is going to turn players away. Right now i am considering whether or not i want to stay because i absolutely hate playing against vettes or as one yet i am forced into one to get the ballista. If this is what you intend to release as final tech tree pls tell me now so i can cut my losses



Yes there is a reason. You're meant to play a balanced fleet of five, not a sole ship. That's the only way to make people do it.

It's both for making the players play the whole game (instead of complaining about a little part and projecting it on the whole game - the common feature of any mmorpg for example, in which players often play only one class ever) and balancing matches to avoid the "stuck in a game with 5 of the same ship" syndrome and stuff like that.


You don't like it, and that's your right, but that's not the same as "no reason". An no reason to enforce your vision to everyone either. And you're not obligated to play the game if you don't liek it.



Right .... lets look past the tree's to see the forest. By "no reason" and further reading, it's fairly clear he really means BAD reason. Fairly simple really. Quite frankly when you go about "making" people play your game a certain way... and you get a load of negative feedback... you said it quite clearly yourself, most don't like it, and that's their right. You then wind up with a game that people won't play. Considering the class based nature of this, forcing people to play unrelated content to reach desired content is a fairly unpopular idea. Frankly several combat style games have tried that and ditched it because... crazy, but it wasn't popular. It was an "idea" not a very good one it turns out, but then again not all ideas are winners. Mixed tier combat without a balance pass... also not a good idea. Oh and on a side note... at present, under the current system, it's rather easy to be "stuck" in a game with 5 of the same class because, news flash, people still want to play their desired class. Is that tactically smart, nope... is it best for the team, nope.... does your average gamer out to play his cool class care, nope. Pretty clear at this point they have some things to think over. I'd suggest incentivising their desired goals instead of shackling players with unpopular choices. Since many will simply play something else as work around to such a system. I'll say it again in hopes some dev lays eyes on this.... Firefall... Red5. They too had a really fun game that suffered immensely from...well heck just about every development mistake one can make. However pointedly they often made design choices behind closed doors in a vacuum, then if/when confronted with player disappointment they simply soldiered on touting they knew best. It's a dead game now and a horrid shadow of it's former freedoms in it's early beta days.



All games have rules, it's part of the definition. All game enforce playstyles, it's part of the definition.


As a game designer, again, i say it to you : people not wanting to play the game as it is designed are a plague.

Why ? Because of that problem exactly: instead of playing the part of the game they want, they want the game to become the game they want. Former is totally right, latter is not acceptable.

I'm not working on this game and thus i'm not tied by PR cr*p or something and unable to say it publicly.

Making the 2.0 Progression go away is literally scraping the game as designed.

It's both insulting and unsustainable (because a game like that need a progression grind somewhat, by the way, no one explained how they would make the game viable without - no, skins are not enough).

You're even illustrating the problem that the enforcing is not enough because players are ruining their own matches by STILL making matches with the same classes.

You want them to balance the game so it is possible ?!

When does it stop ?


What players have to do is grow up and be adults, and play the game as it is, with a moderated frustration (see my propositions), or go find a game which better suits their tastes.


And you know what ? Studies have even shown that the whiny players that want everything changed are actually the first to move one on another game, often in mere weeks (recurrent in mmos and free games, even more in free mmos), and so will never make the game sustainable, after making it change in their (now unsustainable) way.

Devs CANNOT listen to them and change everything.

See my proposition (and participate to it if you want) to a possible feasible solution.


For further examples: the whole balance debate (as always). While there are some modules that need tweaking (blast, ...) and some uncorrected stuff (Jupiter arties, Jutlands) nearly all the "OP" complaints are actually about people not playing counters in their fleets. Literally, not playing the game.

Especially with the "OP corvettes" stuff.

"I assume you are aware that if vast majority of those surveyed have negative opinions of this "Progression 2.0", then it's likely that your main player base are not enjoying the new changes."


I assume you're aware there's never been any survey whatsoever, only a private poll in which only people that had griefs and came to the forum and searched for it clicked, and they are less than 200. But by now anyone can see you're making things up.

" Specifically, nearly nobody enjoys spending months grinding for the next tier. The real delusion is coming from you, who thinks the design of the game isn't running into serious problems."


Herrr, where did you see that someone defended months of grinding ? And specifically, me ?

You're projecting man. Mightily. As i said earlier.

And i'm clearly stating it in my proposition by the way.


" It's really funny how you claimed it's just 7 or 8 people on the forum complaining, and yet when given evidence to the contrary, you claim it's not representative of the main player base. "


There's no evidence.

And in all the threads about the subject i'm getting insulted by the same three or four persons again and again, close to an evidence top the contrary.


"Majority of the feedback in the past few weeks have been related to progression, the long grind and matchmaking wait time. If you are unable to notice, it's time to get your vision checked. "


Okay you're clearly crazy, or speaking with yourself, or something.

I haven't defended them.


"These are directly related to each other as Progression 2.0 takes its toll. There are always a small number of people that will love whatever is handed down to them, and chastise others from not liking it as they do. We all know which categories you fall under."


Yeah projecting much again and insulting blindly and stuff ^^

Get your anger issues checked.

I've literally never said that or something on the same range and actually saying it in my proposition, but yeah, let your rage vent on some random people that disregards your blunt ways.

"Perhaps the most hilarious aspect is that you're telling us that we're doing it wrong. It's the same error that the developers are making in determining we're not having fun because we're suppose to like "building a fleet". When you need to tell others how to have fun, perhaps you should take your own advice about hubris."


Man, the game is not yo your liking, go away.

A designer has the prerogative to design its own game, not you. Not your taste, go play another game.

If you're not into checkers, go play something else instead of redesigning it for everybody and making a fuss about and insulting people saying that redesigning it from the ground is clearly too much.

" You can't force enjoyment from a badly designed system."


THEN DON'T PLAY IT


"We're voicing our opinion that we don't think the current build is a viable path going forward. "


We all are, you're saying the should scrap the game and begin anew, that's not the same thing.


"You claim that we're just here for data gathering and that our opinions on development is worthless, so clearly you don't understand the concept of beta very well."


I think YOU don't.

Proof in you linking stuff about betatester JOBS, that is, people getting paid for it, in companies and stuff.


"The material reality is that you're neither witty nor knowledgeable, but funny in a clownish kind of way."


Yeah personal insults again, clearly your ground is somewhat shacky.

"Oooh the old straw-man argument, good to know you're pulling it out early. Nobody said you're delusional for not agreeing with the complaints"

It has literally been said. Check again.


This is not a big publisher. Your argument is invalid.

And no, it has proved difficult to actually get a key.

And you're contradicting yourself six lines further down by saying it is not a big publisher and so has not dedicated beta testers and thus this was NOT a soft opening but a beta test.

Or are you trying to say they are not permitted to have a beta test ? Despise them calling all this, a beta test ?

That's insane troll logic.


Assumptions (or words thrown randomly in the air) are not facts.


And, people, make a reality check: you're not "a large number of players". You're actually around ten raging here, and there's only 196 people who voted in Mr Important's poll amongst "thousands" from this "soft opening".

Summary: from your own words, the community is not alarmed at all.

And again: even for thousands of complaints a publisher wouldn't change a core mechanic in its game.

I know exactly of ONE counter-example, Eugen with Act of Agression, and the result was absolutely excremental.

If you want stuff to change for the better, stick with their design and make it smoother, stop trying to change it completely.

EDIT: Links seem to work now

Let's be honest, beyond maintenance (for the high tiers), a lot of people are also not playing because the open beta shift will erase all progression, and they don't want to grind-again the thing.


I, for one.

EDIT: @ Dingolf: You spent money on a beta, by the way, clearly stipulated as such, not a game.

Constructiveness, crazy !


https://www.greybox.com/dreadnought/en/forum/topic/42336/?page=1#post-86050


(edit: that seems clogged or something)

Because they're on holidays till tomorrow, german time.


Paul_Shakur#6280 posted (#post-85957)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Beta


Well, it looks like it should be called Open Alpha. It's strange that devs don't know at which stage their software is. Short quote about "Alpha" from wiki:



Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. Alpha software may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version. In general, external availability of alpha software is uncommon in proprietary software, while open source software often has publicly available alpha versions. The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete.



Current game isn't "future" complete. After this is done development process getting into beta stage: extensive testing and bug hunting.

And about beta testers:



Beta testers are people who actively report issues of beta software. They are usually customers or representatives of prospective customers of the organization that develops the software. Beta testers tend to volunteer their services free of charge but often receive versions of the product they test, discounts on the release version, or other incentives.




Actually, with 2.0 it IS feature complete. Only content remains (maps, skins, another constructor, ...)

And you're not reporting issues, you're actually reporting FEATURES, as i was specifically explaining, and disliking them.


You don't like features, and that's an entirely other point, by your own definition not your job at all, and why they're probably not giving a d*mn (appart the "on vacation for two weeks" stuff that is).


obliviondoll#5677 posted (#post-85954)



Theobald#3611 posted (#post-85953)


Sorry if it hurts, but you're not here for your vocal feedback man. You're here for generating datas.



The data I'm generating matches the feedback I'm giving. You haven't been paying attention have you? You also don't know what "beta tester" means if you think remaining silent is part of the job description. You're not even trying to be a constructive poster at this point.



I get it, being a constructive poster is agreeing with you ! Doing clever posting with sound arguments and a sensitive point of view from the designer goals is so stupid ! Far better to insult the devs in my sig or something i suppose !


You're so full of yourself. You're not as important as you think, and it clearly hits hard.


You've no idea of the data you're generating. You don't have access to it.

If anything can be supposed it's actually that the datas are what was expected - a lot less people in the elite bracket in only a few days, and that's basically the whole point of maintenance.

@obliviondoll

I presume you're old enough to know that there's a magnitude or three more than 196 players in this game and your little thing has absolutely no weight (and ESPECIALLY if there's only 196 of them, because then the devs would just scrap the project), and isn't representative in any dimension, because people that don't care or are not in your conviction are actually not even opening your thread ; but if you want to live in your own delusions...

You want the whole game content that matters to be free. This. will. not. happen.

@fehnrir

No, i'm not.

I'm not defending the game as it is (my grief are about tier gating, credits amounts and hero ships utility).

I'm defending the dev POV and their game design vision, probably because i'm more inclined for a good reason (having actually done this in my life).

They don't have to change their core concepts because someone wants another game - there are other games, malcontents can go there. What transpires from nearly every complaints is that the people writing them have no knowledge of game design at all - they have concepts of gaming fun and advantages, and that's not the same thing AT ALL, and they mistake the two as the same thing.

Like it or not, the game is about fleet of 5, not solo classes, and the tree is here to make you do it.

Like it or not, the game is not meant to be played solely on the highest tier, and the maintenance is here for that.



You're not supposed to have an exclusive class of predilection and you have to play all the classes in the low tiers especially to know how to play them and not be in the case you're speaking of.

Working around those parameters to propose a better enforcing and fun is what people here should be doing instead of just nuking half the core concepts. I thought on solutions myself, making them from a designer view, but i'm not sure about writing them down here on the forum because of all this - being insulted by wacky doomsayers and agressive pro-themselves advocates isn't worth it.


Again, you're totally off the coast about what being in a closed beta is - you're not here to give advices, you've never been asked for them anywhere. You're here for datas. Believing something else is plain hubris. They don't have to listen to us, and they don't owe us to do it. Actually there's no difference on duties between a closed and open beta so i don't see why you say it makes a difference to be in the closed one. The differences between closed B and open B are mainly about non-controlled population, stress tests and publicity.


Also, i don't give a frack about being the minority.

I've never done anything to shut anyone up, i'm just pointing how misfiring they are and that's what people don't like.

It's not the same thing as shutting them up.


There 's also a flagrant polarization problem - if you don't agree TOTALLY on someone point of view you're specifically completely opposed, as always on the internet, of course. You just presumed i'm okay with the game as it is without me never saying it anywhere.