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UrQuan

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The answer to this is simple:


Queue times are a direct result of the beta player community's revolt against the shipyard update. Roll the update back and go back to the drawing board with progression and people will play again.


I know that I completely uninstalled due to this update and am heavily considering Fractured Space to get my giant spaceship combat fix.

The deadness may not be a bad thing. Hopefully there is indication that the metrics for participation in the new system as so bad it will prompt radical change from the developer side > perhaps even a full rollback of the progression system into the old system and a change in game model.


This is something that many players (and I feel like the majority) will support.


If people are waiting 10-20 mins for a match just to get in with T4s hero ships because there is no player pool then players are doing a good job of letting them know that this progression system must die.


Good job. Play the forums, not the game until they fix it.

Based on the feedback on Progression 2.0, I am sure it will die. We need to start thinking about 3.0. Here are some ideas I have for a new model:


PROGRESSION 3.0


PART 1: CAPTAIN BASED PROGRESSION


In this particular model, progression is tied to the captain rather than the ship. All captains start off as recruits. All ships fall under 3 categories: BASIC, ADVANCED, NEOTYPE


Recruit captains gain access to the following BASIC ship types when starting the game:


-Destroyer

-Corvette

-Tac Cruiser

-Artillery Cruiser

-Dreadnought


PART 2: CAREER PATHS:


When captains level to rank 5 by using these ships they gain the ability to choose their first career. There are BASIC CAREERS and then ADVANCED CAREERS. F2P captains can only have one basic career and one advanced career, however a captain can gain the ability to have multiple careers by paying GP.


BASIC CAREERS:

Advancing into a basic career allows the captain to purchase ADVANCED ships based on the career they choose.


Forward Vanguard:

Joining the forward vanguard puts captains in the thick of battle. These are the captains that command the frontline vessels that spearhead into battle. Captains in the forward fleet specialize in commanding Destroyers and Dreadnoughts.


Orbital Defense:

Orbital Defense units form the backline of the fleet. Captains belonging to orbital defense command the Artillery Cruisers and the Defensive Tactical Cruisers that support the forward vanguard.


Special Ops:

Special ops captains learn the importance of subterfuge. These captains specialize in Corvettes and Offensive Tactical Cruisers.


ADVANCED CAREERS:


At captain level 15, captains will be able to choose an advanced career that branches off from their basic career choice:


Forward Vanguard Advanced Careers:

-Dread Fleet (Allows Access to NEOTYPE dreadnoughts)

-Search and Destroy (Allows Access to NEOTYPE destroyers)


Orbital Defense:

-Central Command (Allows access to NEOTYPE defensive tactical cruisers)

-Kinetic Energy Division (Allows access to NEOTYPE artillery cruisers)


Special Ops Advanced Careers:

-Assassination (Allows access to NEOTYPE corvettes)

-Black Ops (Allows access to NEOTYPE offensive tactical cruisers)


SWITCHING CAREERS:


Captains are able to swap to a new career at any time by paying a CREDIT or GP fee. Their progression is saved so that if they swap back to the career they were previously working on they will have all their unlocks and ship access. Captains can have multiple career paths active at the same time by opening extra career slots using GP.


PART 3: SHIP PROGRESSION AND CURRENCY


Ships are tiered into 3 categories, STANDARD > ADVANCED > NEOTYPE


There is only 2 forms of currency, CREDITS and GP. All ship upgrades can be purchased with either the standard currency or GP with the exception of cosmetic items (some of which are locked to GP). When a captain reaches a new career rank at 5 or 15, they have two choices. They can either buy a new ship with credits/GP or upgrade their current ship to become an advanced ship.


All ships can eventually be upgraded to the NEOTYPE level. Upgrading or buying a new ship costs credits. Ships can access certain modules based on their tech level. STANDARD ships have a limited module choice in comparison to ADVANCED ships. NEOTYPE ships have access to all and the most powerful modules. Upgrading a ship from one tech tier to the next unlocks the ability to use ADVANCED and eventually NEOTYPE modules.


A ship can only be advanced if the captain has specialized in a career that allows the upgrade (e.g. being a part of Black Ops would allow the captain to upgrade their current ADVANCED corvette to a NEOTYPE corvette.


STANDARD SHIP UNLOCKS AND PROGRESSION:


Standard ships are very basic and can only use their primary weapon + module slots. Officer briefings and secondary weapons are not unlocked on standard ships. Standard ships can only use standard modules.


Agosta (destroyer) > Vigo (advanced upgrade) > Athos (neotype upgrade)

Dover (corvette) > Valcour (advanced upgrade) > Nevis (neotype upgrade)

Rurik (artillery) > Vugani (advanced upgrade) > Svarog (neotype upgrade)

Orcas (tac cruiser) > Aion (advanced upgrade) > Feronia (neotype upgrade)

Nav (dread) > Zmey (neotype dread)


ADVANCED SHIP UNLOCKS AND PROGRESSION:


Advanced ships can use secondary weapons and 2 officer slots. Advance ships can use advanced modules.


Forward Vanguard:

Gravis (dread) > Invictus (neotype dread)

Blud (destroyer) > Gora (neotype destroyer)

etc.


NEOTYPE SHIPS:


Are the pinnacle of their manufacturers technology and can use all officer briefing slots and secondary weapons in addition to having access to all modules.


Dread Fleet: Monarch

Black Ops: Cattaro

etc.


UPGRADING SHIPS/BUYING NEW SHIPS:


Once a ship is advanced from a lower tier to a higher tier, there is no going back. To get a ship to revert back to a lower tier, they would have to buy a new ship and level it to the appropriate tier from scratch. Players can only roll back a ship upgrade by using GP to do so. ADVANCED and NEOTYPE ships also have different starting hulls and more customization options than STANDARD ships.


Upgrading a ship is generally cheaper than buying a new ship and you will have the advantage of having the ship advance into unlocking ADVANCED/NEOTYPE modules while still having the lower tier modules already unlocked.


A new ship not only has a higher upfront cost, you will need to unlock all of the STANDARD modules, ADVANCED, and NEOTYPES from scratch.


MODULES:


Like in the current 2.0 progression system, modules are limited by ship tier and seperated into STANDARD, ADVANCED, AND NEOTYPE modules. Officer briefings are unlocked by career path. Ships cannot be advanced from a lower tier to a higher tier without first fully unlocking all modules.


OFFICER BRIEFINGS:


Officer briefings are account bound and are unlocked by career path. By going down the Recruit > Forward Vanguard > Dread Fleet progression path, you would unlock and be able to buy officer briefings that are designed to boost defensive stats and dreadnoughts.


REPAIRS AND CREDIT REWARDS:


Repair costs for ships are based on the tier of the ship and are constant regardless of win or loss. Things that may impact repairs are the number of times more powerful modules are used. Repairs are generally low cost and at worst may equate to less then 20% of the battle earnings on average.


Battle earnings are affected by captain rank. Captains with higher ranks in their respective career path and advanced careers have the potential to make more from each battle. Higher ranking captains have less problems running more expensive ships and modules but will be expected to play more efficiently at the top tier to manage costs.


Ships, upgrades, and modules are all purchasable via both GP and Credits -leading to a more P2Advance model than P2W or P2Play.


Higher brackets, such as ADVANCED and NEOTYPE offer more career progression than STANDARD -promoting players to advance.


TOO LONG DIDN'T READ, SIMPLIFIED EXPLANATION


1.) I start off as a recruit captain with access to 5 standard ships, one from each class.


2.) I progress to level 5, unlocking ship modules along the way. At this point I get to choose a career path. I like healer ships so I choose the "Orbital Defense" career -which specializes in Artillery and Tac Cruisers. With my career selected I have the option of upgrading my current favorite ship (the Orcas) into an Aion to bring it to Tier II ADVANCED, or I can buy a new advanced ship.


3.) I choose to keep my Aion and upgrade it from an Orcas to an Aion, I must first unlock all the STANDARD modules on it to do this. I upgrade and gain the ability to use secondary weapons and use 2 officer briefings. As part of my career path, I unlock 2 basic officer briefings as a level as a captain that are related to healing. I slot these on my upgraded Aion. I am now put in the ADVANCED tier matchmaking bracket and can only use this ship in ADVANCED fleets.


4.) I progress to level 15 and unlock all the ADVANCED modules on my Aion. I really like playing healer so for my advanced career path I choose Central Command. I gain the ability to by a NEOTYPE ship, the Koschei. I decide that I've done all I can on my Aion, I'm ready for a new ship so I buy the Koschei. I now have to level the ship to unlock all the standard modules, advanced ones, and neotype endgame ones. I now have 4 officer briefing slots and as a level as a central command captain I unlock some very strong officer briefings that are meant to boost me as a healer. I am now in the NEOTYPE matchmaking bracket and playing against endgame players.


5.) I have a friend that just started playing at the STANDARD level. I decide to play with him but no longer have a STANDARD ship. I can use a prebuilt STANDARD ship with a basic loadout available to all players or I can buy a new STANDARD ship. I decide I want to try corvettes.


6.) I play my new corvette with my friend and unlock all the standard modules on it, but now I realize that I cannot upgrade my ship to ADVANCED level because my chosen career path is in Orbital Defense and Central command. At this point I can pay a credit fee to swap careers to Special Ops, which is for corvettes and offensive tactical cruisers -OR I can pay GP to unlock a second career slot on my captain and advanced down the Special Ops career without locking my access away from my central command progression and ships. I buy GP and use it to get an extra slot.


7.) I am now dual career'ed between Orbital Defense and Special Ops. I have an advanced career in Central Command. Instead of upgrading my current Corvette, I buy a new advanced one. I level all the standard modules on it and level my Special Ops career to 15 -unlocking several officer briefings that are designed for corvette play. However, I can use these briefings on my tactical cruisers if I want. I advance into Assassination and really like my current corvette. So instead of buying a new ship, I upgrade it from ADVANCED TO NEOTYPE in order to get all the modules unlockable for it and put it in the NEOTYPE matchmaking tier.


END NOTES


My progression system lets a player to both keep the same ship and progress all the way to endgame, or buy new ships along the way and try them out instead. My progression system lets players specialize into a specific role but then swap at any time to level a new career path for a credit fee. GP users can dual or even triple career paths by buying new slots.


Officer briefings are career path based unlocks, giving me incentive to branch off and level different career paths to fully unlock them all -giving me the most options and the ability to experiment with putting defensive officer briefings from dreadnought career unlocks on damage oriented corvettes to see if I can find new playstyles.

While it has not been too long, I have not seen any positive response to the 2.0 progression model.


From a War Thunder player, I do not thing that the WT and WoWarships model is terribly bad. There are much worse progression models. However, some models do not fit some games. I do think that in the case of DN, this may be one of those instances in which the model does not fit the game.


Popular complaints against the model include:


-Overcomplexity


-Absurd grind in ship costs that rises exponentially from a smooth curve to a straight mountain at Tiers 2-3.


-Being forced to play specific ship classes in order to unlock more powerful ships that belong to a completely different class.


-Maintenance costs punishing new players unnecessarily for losing


-Research XP tied to one ship without spending real money to carry over progression already "earned" by playing (most common wargaming model compliant).


There are many different models out there for a game like this. I do not think DN will be successful with the one chosen. Players have advocated the "MOBA" model.


I do think that if players really hate the new progression system, just stop playing. Turn it off and walk away until they fix it. Vote with your participation.


If you like it, by all means play and grind. But if not, just stop. Decisions are made off hard metrics. If no one wants to play it, then it will die.

I've been a veteran player that has unlocked almost every ship type prior to the patch. I am also a veteran war thunder player, so I am familiar with systems like these. My comments on the new progression system as as follows.


INSTANT ANNOYANCES:


-Progression system UI is a hot mess. I had trouble understanding the various new currencies and over complications of their applications at first.


1.) We have CREDITS: you buy stuff and ok its self-explanatory

2.) GP: The new real money currency

3.) RESEARCH POINTS, the silver star. This really needs to be highlighted and explained better. Earned on specific ships by playing it. Unlocks modules/upgrades on that ship and eventually leads to a new ship unlock.

4.) You can use GP to convert extra RESEARCH POINTS on ships that are already unlocked into FREE XP that can be used for research on any other ship. Basic Warthunder model but this not explained well through the UI.


There really needs to be a better tutorial to explain this stuff to new players. You can't just assume everyone is going to be a Warthunder and WoT vet.


-No previews for higher tier ships. I would go beyond a preview and allow players to test fly them against dummy targets in the training zone. Warthunder does this.


-It is very annoying that I can't look at the the manufacturer tree and see how far a current ship I own has been researched/unlocked. A % should be shown and some metrics instead of just a vague silver star that is just going to confuse people trying to understand the system. I should also be able to see how much free XP I have from the main manufacturer window.


-Module unlocks are clunky and its hard to tell if I already own the module or if the module is being upgraded. It also doesn't tell me how many upgrades on a single module are possible (e.g I unlock stasis pod, then see stasis pod II. How many numbers does it go up to before I get the last upgrade?


-I don't even see how officer briefings are unlocked, which are critical to the operation of some ships.


UNLOCK ISSUES:


Some of the ships with unique playstyles are locked behind huge research grinds for unrelated classes. An example is, the koschei ship class is the best healer in the game. To get it, I have to grind through a large amount of ships completely unrelated to healing.


This is going to cause pitchforks and fires. At least in Warthunder once you selected a research tree (e.g. Med Tanks), you were going to get all medium tanks until the next tier. We have situations now that are forcing healers to run dreadnoughts and artillery to get the final tier healer ships. Things like this are a major turn off to players that want to focus their skills on a particular role.


If I want to play an artillery ship, I should not have to grind through 4 tiers of corvette to get a higher tier artillery ship. This type of progression is doomed for failure because you are forcing people to play things they don't want -which causes walk-aways. This is a critical failure in the system that must be fixed before launch.


SYNOPSIS:


-New system is over-complicated and will be a bad experience for people that haven't played WoT or Warthunder prior to DN. More blinking lights and arrows need to be added in order sheepherd players into seeing important information and to foster their understanding of the system.


-The progression for unlocking new ships forces players into unwanted playstyles, which is a deathblow to the success of DN as a whole. This may be because there are simply not enough ships in DN to support this kind of progression system. If every manufacturer had its own tier line of each ship class, this problem would be less apparent.


-Full maintenance costs for players that joined a game in progression need to be looked at. The maintenance system also punishes new players when losing. This leads to frustration, table flips, and walk-outs. Maintenance as whole is a whole lot of fail. If anything repairs should be a flat amount regardless of victory or loss with battle winners just getting a larger win pot. When you penalize new players that are trying to learn with progression deductions, they will just quit on you. That ideology is flawed critically to the point of greatly endangering DN success.


PERSONAL CONCLUSION:


I have high hopes for DN, but will be leaving until this system is more polished. I will come back and check on the game once more is worked out but I do not think that the game will have any success with the new progression system in its current state. The game would be even more successful if it launched into open beta with the old system.


DN went from an easy game that anyone could jump in and play to a conjointed array of hard to navigate menus that omit key information.


If you fix it, we will come. I have to say that I am disappointed, I was really excited to get into DN after the long 5 day break. This new system is just too unpolished and doesn't carry enough forward thinking to catch my interest atm.


Hopyfully the dev team will be able to remove or polish some of the unenjoyable aspects I pointed out above.


I will see you all again soon when this gets sorted out.

If your doing agile development, here are some user stories for new players:


FORMAT:


As a , I must/need so that .


USER STORIES:


1.) As a new player, I must have early access to a ship class of each type so that I can quickly have exposure to a playstyle that best fits my personal tastes.


2.) As a new player, I must spawn into battle in a fair location in terms of my team's positioning so that I am immediately not isolated and picked off immediately after entering battle.


3.) As a new player, my exposure to "1 shot" or instant kill mechanics that require a veteran's level of precision in skill activation must be reduced as much as possible so I am not immediately discouraged from the game in my first match.


4.) As a new player, I must have access to ship options that low control/mechanics complexity but competitive results so that the game is accessible to players of low skill levels right off the bat.


5.) As a new player, I should be warned of any mechanics or ship types that require higher skill caps prior to attempting to use them (e.g. difficulty ratings on ships for new captains, obviously a artillery cruiser/corvette would be higher than a dreadnought in difficulty to pilot).


6.) As a new player, I should have access to a training mode or sandbox that allows me to test or experiment with a ship before committing to buy it in order to ensure that I know what I am getting into when I buy a new ship.


7.) As a new player, modules and weapon descriptions should be clear in order to ensure that I understand their intended use (e.g. nuclear torp coming from the left side of the ship and the possibility to nuke yourself).


8.) As a new player, the UI for chatting with friends/adding new friends/blocking haters should be easy to use and understand to ensure that I can build a community in the game quickly and effectively.


9.) As any player, ships should not have significant raw stat advantages over other ships (e.g. 5% max, 0% preferred) in order to prevent veteran players from dominating with stats/preset loadouts instead of skill.


10.) As a new player, I should have growing access to cosmetic prestige items (titles, actual medals that can be pinned on my captains uniform, other swag) as I up in rank and grow to give me a sense of progression and accomplishment.


nebukatze#7749 posted (#post-44386)


I also think this is a polarizing change. It strengthens the casual / random gameplay while weakens the (competitive) teamplay.

There (release version) should be a casual game mode (8vs8, squad of 3) and a "ranked" mode for competetive play (8vs8, squad of 8 or 5vs5, squad of 5).

But even this suggestion doesn't seem to be optimal because of a different gameplay in casual and ranked.


This is a real hot thing. They have to change something because 5 randoms against a 5 man squad sucks. But if you are a teamplayer then a 3 man squad in a 8 man team is too small for real teamplay.



I think having a separate queue on release for competitive play is fine. Gameplay should be different between casual and ranked play. What is important is that balance supports both and that the game remains fun.


With the game releasing as F2P, at this point it is important to cater to casuals and new joiners to make sure the new gameplay experience is as fun as it can be. 8v8 is a step towards this.


Starting ships need to be balanced carefully and offer alot of versatility to new players who prefer different playstyles and need to be exposed to alot of basic tactic choices early.


As players graduate in skill to start seeking clans and ranked matches, the gameplay and future ship unlocks should advance into more skill-based/tactical/out of the box type strategies. Higher tier ships should be higher risk but have more rewards when paired with stronger supports.


Some of this is already baked into design, examples being the Monarch -which is a powerful ship when supported by a skilled healer but is weak when lone wolfing against artillery cruisers. The Koschei is another example, which offers the best healing in the game but will cause a full fleet wipe if killed/not given fleet cover and is unable to quickly get back into the battle if taking armored lockdown instead of target warp.


Lymceh#8349 posted (#post-44367)



UrQuan#6336 posted (#post-44366)

There would definitely need to be some balancing, especially to corvettes. 8 corvette zerg spamming blast pulse is horrifying to think about.



I raise you 8 tacs with armored lockdown and their own blast pulse... possibly with nuke mines.

Or even better, mixed with dreadnoughts with armor amp / armor booster pulse.



That isn't actually that bad, everyone just switch to artillery smile

I love the 8v8 change idea. 3 man squads in randoms is fine, if people want to organize it would not be that hard to add a ranked queue/mode that pairs you up with other large coordinated teams.


There would definitely need to be some balancing, especially to corvettes. 8 corvette zerg spamming blast pulse is horrifying to think about.

No to strafing, it would ruin the tactical play of flanking enemies and overpower corvettes.