more importantly, while in a legendary game (and i've used this example precisely because of this) you are more likely to actually see the ungodly coordination that it takes to break a heal ball in veteran you are far more likely to see a heal ball, you only need 3 average players afterall, than you are to see a team with the ability to break one. The only saving grace is that the other 5 dudes on the heal-ball's team probably are not themselves good enough to counter anti-heal tactics if they do happen to be used.

For example. Ramming in a Legendary game is an awesome way to give the enemy a free point. Ramming in a Veteran game is a viable counter, because most people can't cope with ramming. All that does however, is mask the underlying issue. Purge modules, with the exception of the nuke, carry an extreme risk. so much so that an equally viable strategy to win a Legendary match is to simply focus-fire any person actually using one since it drains their shields and for tac cruisers also drops their armor.

at the end of the day, all we need are for some counters that actually matter (not some lame anti-heal missile that will get shot down instantly) to be introduced so that an individual player can pressure a heal-ball and require that individual player to actually have to play the game, rather than play Click-and-Hold simulator.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-225684) said:

I personally don't play a lot of legendary matches because I don't like the pace of them, . There are plenty of ways to make healers vunrable.
Purge/drain/ram/tractor beam/scramble/burstdamage.

In my personal experience, a heal ball is only as strong as the team playing against it.

This, in my opinion. is your problem You have a blinding bias and a lack of understanding. THE PACE IS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. But don't take my word for it here's the math.

take the Koschei, the pinnical of the healers. it heals 1800 per second at optimal range and ~600 in the second range band (out to ~2400m). The weakest shields in the game, dreadnought shields, absorb 65% of all damage, allowing 35% in. heal pods add another 266 heal per sec per ship (800 heal pulses every 3 sec), and auto beams add another 2100 heal per second, per ship and last 40 seconds

The most damaging corvette, the Valcour, does 4063 DPS at optimal range
The most damaging artillery cruiser, the Murometz, does 1833 DPS
(techinically the onager does 2111, but it's easier to get consistant hits with the muro)
Give that all classes at each tier have similar numbers, just increased or decereased 10-25% relative to the next/last tier means that these numbers generally hold regardless of which ship you plug in.

through dreadnought shields those numbers become:
1422 DPS

641 DPS

738 DPS

Now let's assume the typlical 3 ship heal ball.
at optimal range those 3 Koschei's can out heal:
3.7 valcour (4.3 with pods, 8.7 with pods + beams)) (1.2 at mid range, )

8.4 murometz (9.6 with pods) (2.8 at mid range)

7.3 Onagers (8.3 with pods) (2.4 at mid range)

damage modules, because they do so little damge through shields (20k nuke strikes become 7k hits) unless they are volley fired, not intercepted, and all hit generally do not change this equation. I've also left out straight defense modules, like armor amps and weapon breaker modules because, again, they will generally stand to counter other modules.

As you can see, teamwork isn't going to matter if, in a best case scenario of everyone focusing fire and everyone not missing the enemy heal-ball can literally ignore the damage of an entire team of damage-focused ships. That's in the unlikely case of an entire team actually being only damage focused ships. You are asking for an incredible amount of coordination: all ships on target, all ships timing their burst modules simultaniously, all ships also countering incomming damage from the other 5 enemy ships . . . and the 'teamwork' they are countering is 3 dudes on voice coms pointing and holding down fire at the same ship.

This is not balance, this is the very definition of an OP strategy, and this is why healing is THE de-facto meta king for any team that knows what they are doing, and isn't running a corvette pub-stomp squad.

UNYU - Hypervolt#4192 posted (#post-225498) said:

well no ship can get one shot by anything in veteran except a corvette being plasma rammed, so i dont know what else to say. as soon as you spawn, find cover and assess your surroundings. this game is meant to be slow and strategic, you cant fly out in the open- what ship are you playing? check your death screen to see what killed you as well

There are a few builds with the heavy artillery that can easily one-shot the lighter T3 ships. Volley fire can also do this, not exactly 1-shot, but the result is the same.

Shocknfunk#5058 posted (#post-225656) said:

youre also talking about fully decked out maxed tier ships. i expect nothing less of ridiculous difficulty when it comes to playing in legendary where your chances of running into the most dedicated players of the game are a 99% gurantee. I Don't personally choose leg matches due to their slow ques atm and yes running into the elites that have their perfect builds. Can't blame em for putting in the effort to earn their right to have those highend tough ships. Legendary might as well be meant for the best of the best and if you havent somehow put in the time in vet learning those ships then leg will never be a fun place.

i'm talking about fully maxed ships only because A. the math is the same and B. it's very easy to demonstrate. There's nothing fun about 'the best of the best' literally boiling down to everyone MUST fly in a tight ball and spend the entire match focusing one target waiting for a purge module to come off cooldown or for another dude to make a mistake. There is legitimately no difference in the core damage numbers at veteran the only thing that prevents veteran from becomming exactly like legendary is that both teams are unlikely to be totally unified AND that some of the more broken modules only really kick in at T5. So yeah, at T4 you can grab a ramming destroyer and if you dedicate your entire game to suiciding into healers you can break the ball if you're very good and know exactly what you're doing, it's not a fun match: at T5 you'll be focused by the same purge modules that they are relying on to shatter the ball.

None of that changes the fact that healers heal too much, or more accurately, there are not enough ways to counter healers that cannot themselves be easily brushed asside. saying 'oh team work' 'oh you poor numb you need teamwork' 'oh oh oh mah teamwork' downplays the critical fact that an individual player MUST be able to make an impact. If the only way to counter a dedicated heal-ball is with a coordinated team, your own heal ball, or a select set of max level modules you have a balance issue because what that creates is a vast number of essentially hopless games. If player's absoutly cannot make a difference "carry the team" etc they'll just start quitting. It doesn't take very many quit matches to convince a player that they should really quit the game itself and move on. The game's player count is weak EXACTLY because of this and 'mah teamwork' isn't going to fix that, appologizing for the game's balance flaws isn't going to fix that either. Furthermore, the devs have been constantly patching healers and modifying the damage tank numbers percisely because they recognize this is an issue.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-225612) said:

It's called team work. 3 ships can not beat 8. If they are, none of you have the right builds. It is that simple. You have 5 ships and 2 load outs per ship. All you need is 2 of those 8 ships on your team to have purge/ mass drain and AoE. The healers can't heal every ship.

This game is a tactical team shooter. Not a an arena shooter.

8 fully built T5 healers all running auto beams, heal pods, and their main weapons can and do out-heal the combined fire of T5 teams, especially when both of those teams are over 50% dreadnoughts which combine the best shields for this kind of damage tank with the worst guns for breaking it. The only thing that upsets this balance is purge modules . . . which only 1-2 ships will carry . . . which have a 1-2 min cooldown and short duration. so yes, entirely consistent with my post, T5 battles are wholey defined by the 3 moduels that can temporary break the heal-ball, but outside those windows no-one on either team tends to die, this is demonstrably true and the teamwork you've got such a hardon for is one of the primary causes.

The problem is not "meherrr team work" the problem is that DPS through a shield is less than heal through a shield WHEN THE TEAMS ARE COORDINATED. Furthermore, there are dozens of ways to punish and counter any strategy either team might try . . . but only 3 modules that counter the heal ball: purge mode (arty), purge nuke, and purge beam . . . purge ram is suicide. . . and bots, bot's will suicide all on their own, but that's bad balance and a sick MM system.

(if the words below are red on bright why still, i'm sorry, no idea why)

That leaves only 3 solutions: we need more module counters, We need to nerf healing, or we need a slew of nerfs/buffs/new modules to open up other strategic options. but the fact that the best teams in the game all heal ball and nothing else especially when two good teams clash is a sign that it's a broken system. cuz guess what? i've also taken on squads of level 50 (which means NOTHING) players solo and won . . . that doesn't say jack squat about heal balance which is a problem in Legendary, because EVERYONE is good and a problem in Veteran because Squads running a heal comp will win the vast majority of their games unless their's another good player (or another squad) that both has the proper counter builds AND knows what the he!! their doing. Given that this is terrible for 90% of the rest of the player base it's something that needs addressing

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-225454) said:

I see people still think a single ship should trump team work.

There are quite a few modules that will help take out multi tac's. I always fit Tarterus on the dread in my fleet. The AoE purge knocks out all this caught in it. If my team is playing like one, they can then pick of the ships with ease.

Thinking single ship should be able to take out one being healed is silly. One single ship should never trump team work ever.(out side of it running a build to do so, then that person is playing the game right)

That argument falls flat when 3 ships can invalidate the combined firepower of an entire team. High tier battles are litrerally defined by the cooldown times of the purge-type modules and the stupidity of bots. That's if the teams are balance. Often they're so massively lopsided that any amount of teamwork by the losing party simply cannot overcome the massive numbers advantage of the enemy.

Come to check on this dying game. Arming Times still here, massive grind still here welp, check back next month!

Glad to see the OP Arty disrupt beams were nerfed, course we warned you this would happen . . . as usuall.

Good too see that AFTER OVER A YEAR!!!! we finally got loadouts. I should be gladly jumping in . . . butttt see massive grind and arming times

W4R-DN#4622 posted (#post-206629) said:

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-206550) said:

You keep the unlock, but the credit cost will go up.

Why? right now you get out of a vet battle with BB about twice as much XP as you get credits

Same goes for the module cost XP 2:1 credits

Seems fine to me

It goes up because the update ALSO increased the cost of everything. By a significant margin. They did not simply redistribute the cost of the ship unlock to all the modules. they increased the total cost at T IV by almost double, and the T V unlock by nearly 3x. they somewhat reduced the cost at TI, TII, and TIII but the total reduction is equal to the cost of a handful of the T IV or T V modules. In addition, for ships that you already unlocked and purchased the cost of ship modules for the previous ship has been increased, so even though you have 'paid' by unlocking the next ship, you have to pay again (cost redistribution + cost increase) when you buy the modules that you have not yet purchased. Similarly if you have unlocked everything except the next ship prepare to have to unlock EVEN MORE because the new 'unlock a certain number of modules' requires you to unlock and then buy a significant number of the modules in a tree . . . . which now all cost much more.

LT;DR We reduced the pain to get to T IV a little in exchange for a lot more pain at T IV and T V . . . which you still can't get a game in.

Vasiliy#2624 posted (#post-203425) said:

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-203417) said:

Enterprise_NC1701#2026 posted (#post-203416) said:

Whoa, wait. This current system is not all bad. It is way easier getting the next ship. Only the module prizes should be adjusted to the old system from my opinion.

Yeah the old tech trees and having to buy the new ships was not nice at all. The new system is better than the old, it's the figuers that need adjusting, to make the module progression feel better.

That would reduce the overall cost of a ship. Either you pay let's say 50k exp for modules and 100k for the next ship, or you pay 150k for modules but you get the next ship for free.
Problem of the current system is that modules are more expensive so it feels like the grind has increased, because you are actually paying the next tier ship at the same time.

the new system costs nearly 2x as much to advance through T4 and 2-3x as much to max a T5 ship. how is this a better system? It's simple math and it says we were had.

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-203279) said:

Enterprise_NC1701#2026 posted (#post-203278) said:

Yeah, I am trying to have fun. But the system still locks me to one ship, because I need modules for it now, which are darn expensive. When I want to get the quad nukes (starling salvo) on my jutland, I cannot just play any other ship.

Nuke salvo has had a damage nerf and cool down increase. They are not as good as they where. Better off taking Tarterus instead.

They're just not utterly broken now, they're still a good option, just not a 'push to cheese half the team' button anymore.