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Dear Dreadnought Developers



Posté: //
30 Mai 2018 12:28



Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-221602) said:

But the bottom line is as long as there are enough people willing to pay for them, then the price will not move.

Is this the case though? My initial comment doesn't come from me wanting a lower price but from the comment by and discussion over a person involved in the game saying they don't make as much from cosmetics but from conversion (which is one of the main reasons the grind will not get easier).


Posté: //
30 Mai 2018 13:11



Patrazor#2302 posted (#post-221608) said:

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-221602) said:

But the bottom line is as long as there are enough people willing to pay for them, then the price will not move.

Is this the case though? My initial comment doesn't come from me wanting a lower price but from the comment by and discussion over a person involved in the game saying they don't make as much from cosmetics but from conversion (which is one of the main reasons the grind will not get easier).

From business model point of view it will be the case. Business models don't change unless they have to. As long as enough money is being generated to cover costs and hit there projected profits to keep investors happy, nothing changes.

That has been my exsperiance with business anyway. I don't have a clue what this game makes only have other games to use as a comparison. The only other game I play with any regularity that has an in game store is guild wars 2, and they make more money from there in game store than they do from actual game sales. The last profit report I read for that game was over 2 years ago around the time the first exspantion dropped, for the quarter that the exspantion dropped it only accounted to a quarter of money made for that quarter, the rest was from other forms of income, in game store, merchandise etc.

Now this is guess work, but I think dreadnoughts model is to make money from elite, with everything else to supplement this, as not everyone will buy elite for what ever reason, like my personal reason being I don't have time to play as much as id like if I had elite. So most of my elite time would be wasted in my opinion, but I find value in the T2 hero ships and other cosmetic items.


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Posté: //
30 Mai 2018 14:39


Mis à jour //
30 Mai 2018 15:09

Brother Belial#4215 posted (#post-221453) said:

You've made some good point but don't forget they need to make money to keep people paid and the game developed. Reduce the grind too much and people don't buy elite, give too many credits and it removes the incentive to buy them.

I know you don't like the grind but it is there to make money. With out that we don't have a game to play.

There is very hard evidence that this isn't the only route that exists. Dreadnought has some of the best, if not the best, designed ships and arenas (in this genre/niche). The artist team is superb, as is the technical team. How many games do you remember that ran that well at 100+ fps in such a fidelity in the open beta?

In short, there is a really solid foundation for a complex teamgame, be it casual or competitive. Or even both! There is even room for a great coop mode, thanks to the example of the onslaught mode.

Coming back to my first point, evidence: Fortnite.

The guys from epic are making bank mainly through cosmetics. Overwatch would have been a similar example, but I didn't want to include it, because it has an entry pricetag. Still, the bigger part of their revenue is through cosmetics (well, to be very exact, lootboxes, but that's not important) not the entry price. A different example would have been rocket league, but that one didn't explode as crazy as the other two.

To connect the dots: I think the product monetization is flawed and/or very shortsighted.

Why would you tack a freemium model with an absurd grind that incentives not playing what you want (being mainly the case after reaching T3), instead banking on the strength of your own product? As outlined before, Greybox has a great artist, game design and tech team. We can be sure that there would be no shortage in additional shipdesigns, terrains, decals, coatings and so on. Balancing isn't really a problem, it's something that can be fixed and doesn't need to be perfect right away. It's also super difficult to get that correct from the start, especially without a proper competitve scene and a established meta (Which can only exist when the majority of the playerbase reached a certain baseline, let's say full T4 hangar as an example (it's a terrible example, because the tiersystems/fleets aren't without problems as well)).

The grind until T3 is ok, but from T3 to T4 it starts to be a little bit rocky. Getting your first T4 ship and realising how much you'd have to play until you could fit it out with the modules that you want is sobering, especially when having a second T4 ship in mind. Let's not even talk about T5/legendary. And yes, I know, there needs some seperation between playerskill, but that's what's MMR for, not artificial grind barriers.

What is the target group? If it's just schoolkids with too much time, they won't buy elite anyway. That's the group that will buy the occasional skin and enjoy the game for what it is.

And if it's the older playerbase with a steady income, even with all the shortcuts right now (elite and creds), the grinding would still take too much time for those people. Also, those guys would also rather shell out all their cash for cool customization instead slightly reduced grind and reward you guys for making a cool game. Adults also tend to reward good ideas/games, when they feel that they are not getting milked.

Like, if you are already investing money AND time, you really should not feel like a sucker. With around an hour or two per day for an adult with family you can forget about that this part of the playerbase will stick around for long. Sadly, it's also that group, that will reward GP with more money, IF they feel that their money and time is being valued properly. I'm sure there are a lot of people that would like to invest, but are very unsure about the future, as in if it really will be that grindy or how long this game will be around. I'm one of them.

Let's go through a couple concrete examples where I think the monetisation is done wrong or right and how that impacts me as a customer:

1) Founder packs I'm all for supporting good games and I'm fine with founder packs usually consisting of less useful gimmicks. But here we have two packs, where both have the same two heroes in it. At the first glance that's fine, because who would buy both? Well, then you notice that both have different coatings/emblems. It's very clear that the bigger package should have the customizations from the first pack included. You really shouldn't start the milking process at the founder packs. It's that playerbase that supports you when it's not even clear how long this game will be supported. If that was "overlooked" then you should probably fix it quickly.

2) Elite While this likely will always be a buyable option (sadly), there should be at least an option to buy two days for 200. A week elite of which you can maybe make 20-30 hours use of the bought 168 is a terrible deal. Let's be generous, 4h a day during the workdays and 8h per day on the weekend, that's still 36h of 168h. Pretty terrible deal, especially if you take into account that it's a 100% boost, not a straight boost of 3000c per match, which makes it even more frustrating to lose with a very green team against Lando drunk ramming us to pieces in his corv . Of course, the straight boost would have the problem of botting/scripting/abusing it, so it's definitely not the perfect solution. But maybe there is a good middleground or perhaps working on the elite faireness would be a good idea. Maybe just counting actual playtime and increasing the price per day would be a good compromise. If you insist on keeping it that is.

3) Hero ships/Coatings/Emblems/Patterns - pricing/idea Personally, t think that's the only one part that the "product monetisation team" "did" properly. Hero ships do not only look nice and will be in the future usable for your other ships, but they also work as a nice shortcut to play around in vet and legendary. The pricing seems to be a bit harsh tho: They are only around up to the end of the mid game and are after that at a disadvantage, making the customization the main seeling point. But I think I can be fine with that, when I know that I'm not getting robbed on other corners of this game. Being still pretty expensive and limited in usefulness, while being uncertain of the future of this game is explanation enough why the skins didn't sell. The games that do well with just mainly selling skins have also a 10-500x bigger playerbase, so the percentage of whales will obviously be higher and nearly nonexistent here.

In my opinion saying the "skins didn't sell well enough" is a very weak excuse for the model that we have currently.

The other skins/custom-things are priced reasonabably and I'll likely shell out a good amount on this. I think these things will sell really well, even heroships if reduced slightly in price, like 3k for the T4 ships, which is still a huge chunk.

But only when it's clear that the grind is no longer the main focus of your monetisation.

There must be some disconnect going on, some uncertainty of how well the art design is recieved or how good their product actually is. It's also very possible that the monetization team is acting on "business ideals" that are already ancient and are not longterm oriented. Yes, Warthunder and World of Tanks worked out, because those were untapped markets and there were loads of promises in the beginning (for example the merge of the different games). But that was years ago and their playerbase is declining. Those playerbases are also hurting under the sunken cost fallacy. A similar example would be Mechwarrior Online, which nearly failed because of bad monetization in form of the huge grind. Not even talking about the gameplay issues, like skilltrees and so on.

Regarding the GuildWars example: It's an established franchise, so there is also clearly less risk involved. From the first game the playerbase knows that this game will last and it still does.

Currently the best case scenario would be, that grind / time / money investment will be heavily adjusted and was for now just a placeholder (which would of course alienate your playerbase that has already paid even further). But let's not be that naive. As the others, I tend to agree that there won't be any adjustments. Which is sad, because there is a really nice game hidden below the grind.

C'mon Greybox, on your page it says that you guys are mainly gamers with passion, that are willing to take risks.

Don't make your monetisation work like your "Career" button on the main Greybox page. Spoiler, it doesn't.

Edit: Textformatting sucks on this forum. Why am I even formatting my sheet, when it gets fueked up anyway through the resizing? Welp, enjoy the WoT :/.


Posté: //
30 Mai 2018 14:40


Mis à jour //
30 Mai 2018 14:43

I am not a Mathematician, and I cannot say much regarding this. Maybe enhance Elite a bit. Higher bonuses for other players. Maybe add "Elite for Life" that costs ~20€/$ or so. That would give you a Special Cosmetic or Heroship, Discounts on new/upcoming skins, an elite bonus on Daily contracts, etc.

But we really need the bonus Xp, together with bonus Credis (or an increased amount). I am sorry, but the Grind has to be like that. I am aware of the other probs, but they won't be forgot.


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^I want to believe^

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Posté: //
30 Mai 2018 15:47



Maybe when purchasing elite, instead of being give in a set time frame, it should be counted as time played. So, if a person buys 3 days of elite, rather than having a consecutive three day period in which it is active, give them 72 to play at their leisure, so if they can'y play on a certain day, it wil still be available when they return. I'd venture to say people would be more willing to buy if it were timed on play time rather than calenday days.



Posté: //
30 Mai 2018 16:00



SkyRaider#3584 posted (#post-221619) said:

Maybe when purchasing elite, instead of being give in a set time frame, it should be counted as time played. So, if a person buys 3 days of elite, rather than having a consecutive three day period in which it is active, give them 72 to play at their leisure, so if they can'y play on a certain day, it wil still be available when they return. I'd venture to say people would be more willing to buy if it were timed on play time rather than calenday days.

I too had this idea, but elite is set up in a way to make you think if you are not playing, your wasting your money. This is how I felt when I use to play World of Warcraft. Felt I had to play as often as I could or I was wasting my money on the subscription. It works the proof is there in games like WoW.


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Posté: //
30 Mai 2018 22:12



bonus bonus bonus.....= better players.. first u must earn them...what system do we have thus far to get 3x bonus's?


description

looks like a good cold night in space

hmm i guess no point wasting time on this rock of a planet....calling all crew,this is your caption speaking enough picking your nose's and playing cards get ur sissy butts to worktime to blow sum shit up {all hands to your stations!!!}....prep my ship....and weres my soda and i want hot pizza ...(sigh)cant find good help these days


Posté: //
31 Mai 2018 00:29



Enterprise_NC1701#2026 posted (#post-221441) said:

Hello,

your wierdo Enterprise here, requesting some changes and things. Some are already known, if not all of them.

First, regarding the new UI. I do not know what to think. The Hangar did exist since the birth of Dreadnought, and the UI looks pretty and is fairly easy to use. I do not understand the incoming UI changes. I would like to suggest the current Hangar to become a free for all Vintage cosmetic. I cannot identify with my Ships if they just hover in place above a Map. Maybe I will accept the new UI, but I am not sure.

The Grind, my major gripe I have with Dreadnought. No joke, the Grind is pushing me away from Dreadnought, it is like homework. And I do everything to ignore/avoid any kind of work I do not like. The Grind is opressive, long (2 weeks of hardcore Grind, ~4 hours a day, T4 Grind), and just frustrating. The double Xp Event gave me hope, you Devs have to make the bonus Xp the standard Progression, but only from T3 upwards, T1+2 is fine. I could not resist playing, I had fun, I learned something about Modules and Ship types, making a Personalized Build was possible. Other Captains report an increased amount of Legendary matches, people enjoyed T3. All of this was too hard to achieve, barely possible. This is how the Grind should have been! Give Dreadnought a future, a future everyone would be happy with!

Guess what comes next?

Yup, you got it. Carriers A Dreadnought cannot carry that well, the amount of jets is too limited, the Ship is more an offensive Tank then a Defensive support class like the Tac cruiser or Artillery.

We do also need a proper Matchmaking, skill or level based. Of course, one or two T3's could slip in, but hey... European Servers are a must, I am tired of a 200ms Ping! (Battlefield 1:2000ms once) Please put an increase of daily Contract rewards into consideration, 2k per contract maybe. The Credit income should be increased to 7k-8k average per match, Credits are important! You can buy them with Gp, sure. But still, we do need more from a match

Assists should be rewarded by the amount of damge dealt, and supportive actions have to be made great again! Tartarus and disrupt, drain, reward Teamplay please.

The "Set as Flagship" option has to return, to compensate possible late joins.

Did I forget something?

See you in Space!

Agree with everything particularly the grind. Prior to the double xp weekend i almost gave up on dreadnought. The double xp weekend allowed me to make meaningful progress. It's depressing having to go back to grind so pls keep double xp permanently


Posté: //
31 Mai 2018 07:32


Mis à jour //
31 Mai 2018 12:32

double xp grind is all we have.... ??? really...dude.. thats harsh...just speaking my veiw...i kno making games takes years to get it up and running then to try make it balanced is a feat in its own way...yes i see the xp grind as a challange but to finally get what you been dieing to have at long last is the best reward.. but then after the joy sets in...time to level up..again! ughhh...if double xp is the only time you can gain any ground in getting ur next teir class ship or maxing ur current build then i feel the pain of thoes who cant stand it....

i over looked my idea of { dont die get double xp or triple if u survive and dock your ship post}... this game is down right hard sometimes some player die 3-5 times a match so they wouldnt get any xp bonus at all sadly but would'nt that help them become a better player???? more tactical flying and attacks which makes match's longer... less deaths, less kills but in the end if by luck or chance the player didnt die they got the extra 600xp whilst that was the first match the more gifted players are in leg teir 5 fighting it out forever trying to get that flawless victory 5 matchs straight for that grand 3600xp thats a challange if not imposable ...which in turn make a caption a caption...cant beleive a story of battle that comes out his or her mouth......

{yea im telling ya..it was 3 if them..i killed them all gunz blazing 50% energy left i thought my time was numbered but then boom! repair pulse bomb hull at 100% i ordered the crew to re-route the power and fire at what ever moves.... we blasted them into deep space i tell ya!! } yea right caption thats a story...{ahh no mate it true.. i did 5 battles never died...ima legend around these parts sho a lil respect b4 i knock yah on your azz} thespace bar laughs it up ..cheers!

my little story now young commanders want be just like the old fart... but in there prime heading into battle with that goal in mind... DONT DIE YOU'LL BE A LEGEND!!!!!.....echo echo echo..

asking devs to make a mini game is a big deal ..after all making mini game is more coding and office time...more team speach's, meeting's but....=$$$ right? man if i lived my dream job i would be a game dev.. modding and codeing takeing the comuity ideas and asking my boss can we do this...??? with a big smile on my face...after all its more hours to get paid for..lol but thats just me...

if u havent read it by now heres the idea...click here--->Full immersive aftermath of battle


description

looks like a good cold night in space

hmm i guess no point wasting time on this rock of a planet....calling all crew,this is your caption speaking enough picking your nose's and playing cards get ur sissy butts to worktime to blow sum shit up {all hands to your stations!!!}....prep my ship....and weres my soda and i want hot pizza ...(sigh)cant find good help these days

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