State of the game, and why I feel that way

Posté: //
18 Juillet 2016 06:33

Mis à jour //
19 Juillet 2016 03:33

I edited it so that it's not just a wall of text now.
From my perspective, and from the perspective of the vast majority of this community, they messed up, and I'm done trying to argue how they should fix their issues. I have a problem when a game not only loses a vast majority of it's player base, but also makes them feel like they wasted their time. Time trying to provide feedback, make something they loved and really liked better, and being told that your ideas will be considered, before for all I know, they are never mentioned again. That's where I'm at right now, and it's going to take something bigger than "here have a founder pack" or "we're working on it" to change that. It's rubs in and makes sure that you know that the game is only in closed beta, that we the players, are expendable, and perfectly replaceable.
The entire high ranking community for competitions, just playing, testing, everything, basically vanished overnight, and the devs haven't even tried to reach out to figure out why. I wasted at least 200 hours, probably around $140, and this isn't even mentioning all of the other high level players who have spent time trying to help this game. In one update, this game lost nearly everyone left from Alpha, most of the folks from early beta, and more that I am not even familiar with. I understand this is a business with a profit motive, I understand that they want to make money off this, I understand that they have THEIR way that they believe the game should go. But when they don't even listen to the simplest balance changes and go with what they think it should be, only to be proven that it doesn't balance anything... Lets just say it gets old real quickly. The ONLY reason I am not asking for a refund is because (A. I doubt I wouldn't get it, and (B. I actually hope this game turns out into something worth my time and it won't be wasted.
I hope this game actually becomes something enjoyable and popular. But right now, I know for a fact that this is just not going to happen. And that is incredibly disappointing. Because I'm having to move on to other games because I just can't deal with dreadnought any more. Sure, I have other games that I enjoy, and that I am playing in the mean time. But Dreadnought had something special that I wanted to make better, and all of my time trying to make it better was wasted, amounting to nothing. That is my reasoning, it is why I think and feel the way I do, and it's probably not changing at this point, because the devs aren't going to put actual effort into it in any way that I am going to see. I don't care to watch the streams any more, and they don't really post much on facebook. So there you have it, it's not pretty, but it's the truth.

Post Edit Note:
I appreciate that a community manager acknowledged my post, however it doesn't solve a problem that has been present in this company for a long time. Every time someone voices their disappointment in the game, the company goes on the defensive rather than seeing what can be done to resolve grievances. Sure, this is a problem that has likely been made worse by various trolls whittling down their patience over time, however it is a problem none the less. Presuming I am only saying this to make you have a bad day, rather than reaching out to try and see what could be done to fix the problem, is going to solve nothing. It won't bring me back, and it won't bring back all the other high level players who left this game after the most recent update. Even if I'm not the one you reach out to, there are plenty of other disappointed high level players who have left the game over your most recent update. They've been the main ones testing things for you, and suggesting balance changes from the community, and the vast majority care about this game. Whether I agree with everything they say or not, that's enough for me. I said I don't expect this game to be enjoyable or popular, not that I don't want it to be.

As I said, I do not have an interest in watching the community livestreams or developer chats, and my schedule doesn't allow me to make it to any of the round tables. As of yet, those have seemingly been the only ways that feedback has actually been accepted and acknowledged. Actually hearing back, "Hey, we like your feedback, we'll try implementing that", or saying which/what part you will try implementing, or "We appreciate your suggestion, but we're not going to be implementing your feedback at this time." Even if something happens, and you are unable to implement something like you said you would, and you have to tell the community it won't be implemented for reason X, Y, or Z, I know I would personally be much less upset . If visibility has been an issue for you, then there's your solution. You could even change the #progression-updates channel on discord to a channel only the devs can post in, where you say what will or will not be implemented, and what you are attempting in a way that nearly everyone who cares can see. You need to make Dreadnought look good for casual players, okay, I get that, but in joining the Dreadnought Beta Testers Discord, people are actively stepping towards testing and fixing the game, rather than just playing it casually. You could probably get me and quite a few other high ranking players back if you did something like that.

I could probably also get most of the high ranking players who left to tell you why, so the developers and the long time player base you lost with this most recent update can work together to make this game better rather than suffering from the "disconnect" you describe. However, I doubt I'm going to be able to convince anyone unless they feel like you'd listen. Otherwise, I guess this will have just been me venting with no progress or change for either party.


Posté: //
18 Juillet 2016 13:31

Mis à jour //
18 Juillet 2016 13:33

So I wanted to bring up a few of your issues and maybe clarify a bit from the developers POV.
First, everything you are feeling regardless of whether or not it's actually true is still valuable. If you truly feel like "all of my time trying to make it better was wasted, amounting to nothing" then there is a disconnect between what you feel should have been and what was. Nothing we do is ever going to be perfect and we have a lot of room to improve. There will be many changes that you just don't agree with, that being said we will continue to get better, improve and push forward with what we truly believe is the best path for Dreadnought.

What we have said:
1. Dreadnought is in a truly closed "technical beta"
2. We took a look at our data and identified systems that needed to be revamped; this turned out to be a huge undertaking.
3. Our lack of changes in a live service and our patch notes is something we admit has been a point of failure for us. One that resulted in everyone from yager working on Progression 2.0 and upcoming major content roll out features. This is not ideal by any means but it is the reality of the situation and the one that we chose to do.
4. Feedback has been hugely important in the last 3 months of beta. Matchmaking, Progression, and gameplay has all been touched because of the community's direct efforts. Visibility has been hard because of the confidentiality of the sweeping changes but that has changed starting last week. Things to look forward in the near future regarding communication: Progression Developer talk feat: Peter (should be out tomorrow), forum responses, AMA coming next week, Developer stream Q/A featuring the community.

I could go through your post and pick things out and break it down but I truly want to leave this on a positive note. One exception, however:
I hope this game actually becomes something enjoyable and popular. But right now, I know for a fact that this is just not going to happen.

I look forward to disproving your "fact" with the hard work I know Yager is putting in. smile We do have an uphill battle, and we have a lot to prove with Progression 2.0. 2016 is only a little more than half over and we have a wild ride coming up!

DN_Thor Community/Streaming Manager for Dreadnought. Interested in Broadcasting?! Send me a ping!

Posté: //
18 Juillet 2016 16:37

They are giving out refunds following "2.0".

Posté: //
18 Juillet 2016 21:31

Please use the enter key Draggomer, its very hard to read that wall of text.

(I believe these forums require you to 'enter' twice to get the correct spacing.)

Posté: //
18 Juillet 2016 21:59

All of your time spent trying to make it better? In what way? Did you sit down and chat with the devs?

I'm just puzzled that you think every request is going to get a reply affirming that yes, your change is being implemented.

Posté: //
24 Juillet 2016 02:54

I disagree, Mr OP.

Respectfully, you don't speak for me, or the majority of my friends.

This brings up my main gripe with Dreadnought, and ironically, it's not about the game - it's this: In my experience with the game so far, there's a few especially loud voices in the community that I feel are spelling a narrative that doesn't represent the majority, despite your claims to the contrary.

Though I don't have the breadth of experience you do, i'm close to the level cap, and I love the game. I have 2 accounts, as one of my friends is on deployment, and I know it's a gift he'll love when he returns. I've spoken to the devs on Discord, and they've responded, even engaged in reasonable discussion. I've thrown my beta invites around my circle of friends, and many have decided to splurge on founders packs. They're for the most part impressed with the level of interaction between players and the dev team. They're still around, going up the ranks, and while we are no means an elite team of competitive juggernauts, we're having a fat old time, and generally loving the life of a virtual space battleship captain.

There are more than a few nitpicks, but for the most part they fully understand the nature of the beta life cycle, and are able to enjoy the game despite it's typical beta issues.

You know what they don't find engaging though?

The community.

A few have dipped their toes into the forums, or reddit, or the discord to express ideas and thoughts, and the experience of a few was enough to dissuade the rest of them from participating in discussion at all. When I asked for specifics (they didn't go into much detail as we were more interested in playing the game) the general gist of it resolved around an attempt to brave the turgid waters of discord:

Ye olde friend: "Hey guys, this game is great, i'm having a blast! Here's some of the stuff I enjoy:"
Captain relentless defeatist: "Oh yeah, well, hold up there sport, you're about to be disappointed. Here, i'm going to subject you to a half hour rant about why you're wrong about enjoying the game and why it's terrible and utterly doomed to failure, and i'm going to vehemently dismiss all your opinions as you don't yet have 200 hours of gameplay under your belt."

A few others described similar experiences, and that was that.

Though I don't profess to have the same depth of experience as those of you from the alpha, my own opinion of the community so far has been this:

  • It's the relentless and bitter cynicism of a select few of the 'old guard' permeating the forums/reddit/discord that has turned many of my fellow space captains away from engaging with the community, and it's not hard to see why.

Just reading some of the comments posted in that triumvirate is draining, let alone participating in conversation. It's hard to find the energy to say positive things or even provide legitimate feedback about the game when there's an elite cadre of dissenters poised to refute and challenge people that express enjoyment about whichever things are currently on the old guard's **** list.

It's by no means all doom and gloom, but for every stalwart voice of reason there is among experienced players encouraging temperance and patience, there's another louder one having none of it.

I know the shared experience of my own group may not necessarily reflect that of the majority, but generally, what happens in these little microcosms in beta is a good indication of what will appear on a larger scale when a game goes live - and my experience points to new players being driven away from community participation by those who are more interested in gaining recruits to help them grind axes than they are in welcoming new players and allowing them to form their own opinions.

I've no problem with anybody expressing opinion, at all, but please don't claim to speak for everyone when you post yours.

Posté: //
24 Juillet 2016 10:48

Mis à jour //
24 Juillet 2016 10:49

Kiiyor#1809 posted (#post-41258)

Unfortunately, every multiplayer game will spawn its own group of bittervets (though the escalation to bittervet status for this game is remarkable given it isn't even in final release form lol). The devs do need to make it as easy as possible for people to interact - in-game and out - so players can get in touch with others who actually want to play the game and have a more positive attitude. However, there will always be bittervets and jaded individuals, and since misery loves company they're eager to share their thoughts. Their presence kind of comes with the territory...all the devs can do is make sure that isn't the only community experience that new players get.

  • Alexei G

Posté: //
24 Juillet 2016 18:24

Mis à jour //
24 Juillet 2016 18:38

Hey now... no need to discredit folks who put vast hours into this. There is a reason they came to these opinions after all. Most of my team put in 500+ hours... some more than that. We've been playing since January and some before that.

I'm definitely concerned with it's direction... but that's when they need us most. They want to know how we feel. So we're telling them. If anything I can see why veterans would be afraid they'd listen to the newer players. Who often prove they have no idea what they are talking about. It's hard when you've played thousands of matches and you point out why something isn't quite working or outright broken to have a newer player brush aside your experience.

Believe it or not there was a fairly competitive early period to this game... and Drog's not wrong that most of them left.

Anyway... I'm wary of 2.0 and the tier system but I'm willing to try it out first than outright condemn it. Hopefully if it turns out to be an undesirable design they can still change it before full release. The biggest gripe I think I see from veterans (barring tier and repair concerns) is that some are feeling somewhat ignored. The devs do go to great lengths to talk to us and it is getting better... but it can feel a bit scripted and impersonal in nature. Not all of DN staffers of course.

Deep down I still love the core of this game. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. I just don't want to see it lost in the changes to come.

Posté: //
24 Juillet 2016 19:16

Constructive criticism/recommendations are always good be it from new players or veterans (different perspectives, after all). Input based on hundreds of hours of experience is no doubt very valuable. However, I got the impression that a very specific subset of veterans was being referenced - i.e. those that have given up the fight, as it may be, and now just want to pout and spew negativity on the forums (thereby ruining the experience for newer players and not really adding anything of value).

Either way, hopefully the devs do listen and actually "hear" the feedback from their playerbase otherwise this game will suffer and likely die in a few months following release.

  • Alexei G

Posté: //
24 Juillet 2016 20:21

Dismissing negative feedback from players who showed a lot of dedication to the game over a long time as them being bittervets and jaded individuals is about as unhelpful as if I would call you a fanboi.

Deal with the arguments being brought forward, not the people making them.

My Dreadnought tools and resources: Dreadnought Datamine | Snib's Dreadnought Steam Launcher | Hangar background noise remover

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