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Now available: Dev Talk #1 - Progression 2.0 (and the new guy introduces himself)



Posté: //
19 Août 2016 09:49



Doesnt it limit our choice of ships though? If I play with friends tier 3 I can only choose ships I grind to that Tier. So we cant just switch who of us heals for an example because to keep up with the tier grind one of us will have to dedicate him self to healer ships.

Im not sure if its like this but it seems to be that we have to unlock the same module again one we get to the next ship tier? ex: If I have Module A on my Ship and I get to the next tier I have to unlock Module A again for that tier as well.

Than there is also the problem of fighting up and down tiers. Making you fight higher tier ships puts you in a game with a severe disadvantage that is totaly unnessassary if Dreadnought wouldnt switch to the same system every other game has.

Progression 2.0 promises less grind because you can work towards your ship and that might be true if you only fly one ship class. If you decide what ship you want to fly based on your friends/team choices you either cant or have to grind all ships which will make your progression compared to other people just that much slower.

I dont see any advantage to this system what so ever, I sincerly hope I am wrong smile



Posté: //
19 Août 2016 19:59


Mis à jour //
19 Août 2016 20:00

Draex#3006 posted (#post-42686)

Welcome aboard! The repair cost will not prevent you from playing the game. As for the tiered ships, currently we have a level up system before you can access those higher level ships that you want. It works similar to this. However once you get a ship that you like, you can continue to use that ship in that same bracket. Or you can continue up the tiers to access higher level ships.

I hope I don't sound all that snarky, but that is quite literally the one thing we're all worried about. None of us want a "World of tanks" scenario; I mean, a lot of us are actively trying to escape from that system.

There is a certain joy that comes from every single ship being relevant at every possible moment, instead of some ships being rendered completely irrelevant by others. Now, you might think "oh, you can always use that ship so long as you're in that bracket," but that doesn't help at all. Here's an example.

Let's say I unlock the Athos. Currently, that is by far my favorite ship in the game. I adore every piece of that silly thing. I'm playing it for a while, and I realize I have the ability to leave it behind for the next tier, moving forward in progression. But, man, I don't want to leave my baby behind. I just got the seat warm! So I stay back and just play in that tier only. However, over time, due to my unwillingness to move forward, I begin to feel bored. Progression in tiers and items has stopped. Friends who have no qualms of abandoning my tier to move up leave me in the dust. And eventually?

I stop playing. That's what I see happening here.

It might seem tempting to follow to paths of every other world of war thunder whatever out there, but I advise against it. Move against the grain, listen to the community, and do your own thing. From there, money will follow.

Man, if you put out different hull pieces for the Athos TOMORROW, I'd likely buy them! I want more Athos stuff!


Needs more Admiral Beard.


Posté: //
19 Août 2016 22:25



Mako.... something you may have missed;

There aren't actually 50 new ships (or 35 'new' anyway..)

Its the same 15 we always knew, with somewhere between 2 and 4 reskins each.

In your example about the Athos... I know from the screenshots that there is an 'athos' in Tiers 1 through 4 for sure, and quite possibly T5 as well.

The 'more advanced' ships, such as the.. Grenada (the 2 shot burst heavy sniper), is only available in Tier 3+, and as such, it only has 3 variants.

Basically.. I would be VERY surprised if every ship (of the 15 original ship types) isn't represented in some way in Tier 5, or at least, Tier 4 (which is in the 3rd bracket, T4-5 queues)

A more reasonable issue is that.. if you ONLY love snipers... there is no Tier 1 sniper, at all, from what I can tell. (This is probably intentional to make Tier 1 as newb friendly as possible)... but anyone who hates playing anything but sniper WILL BE forced to play a non-sniper for a bit.... Personally, I am ok with this issue.. as it is only a short term issue.


Posté: //
20 Août 2016 04:37


Mis à jour //
20 Août 2016 05:29

@Jeslis, because this quoting system is totally borked lol

I understand that, but different tiers of the "same ship" have different appearances. If I hate the appearance of the tier 2 athos and the tier 5 athos, I'm screwed.

In fact, the way they're planning seems awfully lazy, trying to advertise "FIIIIIIIFTY SHIIIIIIPS!" that are just reskins. I mean, we even already HAVE a system of customization for each of the 4 sides of the ship, so why not have one base model and ALL the customization of the next 4 tiers.

This also doesn't address my (and, assuming, many others) extreme distaste towards the forced tier system. Being able to be relevant at ALL times is a selling point in and of itself, especially when you're playing with friends who just started. Instead of having to slump back to tier one to help a friend out, he can join you with a trader ship while you pilot the ultra giga death cruiser you spent 1000 hours tuning to your liking.

Speaking of, how would trader ships work in this? Would your trader ships ALWAYS force you to be in tier 1? Would there be a trader ship for each tier? Since tiers wouldn't be tied to player level, that's a darn LOT of trader ships. At least 25. I don't see it playing out well.

I and others would much prefer the way Mechwarrior Online does it, in which you can buy every mech from the start (for different prices), and every mech is relevant all the time. This way, the only limitation would be player-made tier lists, which don't actually affect the game mechanics and systems directly.

However, if we WERE to have the tier system, I think I'd rather prefer an alternate approach. Instead of each tiered ship being better than the predecessor, each ship is... different. Athos tier 1, as well as every other tier 1 ship, is available for purchase from the start for whatever price they may be. As you play with said Athos, you level it up, unlocking modules and whatnot, until you hit tier 2.

Either for free, or for a price (either works), you unlock tier 2 Athos. However, it's not strictly more powerful than the original Athos; it's just different. Maybe a different primary weapon, maybe different modules, maybe some "unique to this ship" hard-coded crew commands. This way, you have an incentive to buy the tier 2 ship to experiment. Maybe that crew command is really powerful, or maybe you prefer the new primary. Or maybe you don't like either, and would prefer to continue playing with the tier 1 Athos. That'd be fine too, as the tier 1 and 2 Athos are not separated by tiers, and can play together at all times. Even if you don't unlock the tier 2 Athos, you still gain progress towards tier 3.

Something like that would give you "50 ships," all distinct and unique in their own way, and all able to play together. Tier 1 ships are all the default models, and can be customized in every way they can now. Tier 2-5 ships differ from Tier 1 ships in stats, locked unique crew commands, different primaries/secondaries/modules, and with unique hulls and other visual flares.

I feel like this would be the best of both worlds, giving tier lists, 50 ships, a TON of new and exciting strategies and fleet combinations, and not locking anyone out from due to forced tier lists.

'Tis a bit of a mind splurge I just went on, but the more I typed, the more I had to say. You know how these things go. Also, in hindsight, my idea seems a bit similar to Mechwarrior Online's different mech variants, but whereas those are minor and usually unnoticeable changes without any visual flare, these would be major in terms of visual design and playstyle.


Needs more Admiral Beard.


Posté: //
20 Août 2016 10:14



@Mako
The devs said they were not able to balance to game with all ships and modules they have or plan, especially regarding the new player experience. The Corvettes that every new player deems overpowered, are close to nonexistent in the games of those that already play competetively. They add the tiered system so they can mess around with the stats of ships and modules, without creating even stronger newb/pub stomping loadouts.

On top of this they said that the game will change its play style, from rather easy fast and simple, to highly tactic and more strategic, going from tier 1 to 5.

The problem they see can not get adressed with a matchmaking system, because this would mean you would have to buff for example the corvettes by giving them high rank unlock modules that are stronger, while most damage in the game is usually done by the guns. So you would create ships that are useless as long as their modules are on cooldown.


Recruit Engineer


Posté: //
20 Août 2016 14:32



@Jawayne

I feel like this is the wrong way of going about things. Rather than going "well, we can't balance anything, so let's split everything into tiers separating the community," they should double-down on trying to balance things as they are. Plus, how can they be worried about modules being unbalanced when they don't even EXIST yet if they didn't PLAN on making them overpowered compared to earlier modules? If you plan modules around a tier system, then of course it happens that way.

There are other ways to balance things, beyond a tier system. For example, I was thinking about ways to balance the corvette, and one of the ideas I had was a soft-lock system for the aiming reticle. Place your cursor near the target, and it'll soft lock on, making aiming a little easier. Of course, we'd need to find a way to make it so that corvette pilots suddenly find themselves underpowered, but it's a step in the right direction, I think.

And plus, let's be real. There will always be pubstomps. Even now, with basic trader stuff, I pubstomp anyone who doesn't know what they're doing. Having separate "tiers" won't make pubstomps any less egregious, since higher-tier players can always go back to tier 1 to take a huge steaming dump on new players. It's a non-issue.


Needs more Admiral Beard.


Posté: //
20 Août 2016 15:07



Cant seem to skip/seek ahead that linked Twitch stream recording, is there any sound at all in it at some point, all been muted at the beginning?


Posté: //
20 Août 2016 16:17


Mis à jour //
20 Août 2016 16:18

Mako109#2699 posted (#post-42823)

@Jawayne

I feel like this is the wrong way of going about things. Rather than going "well, we can't balance anything, so let's split everything into tiers separating the community," they should double-down on trying to balance things as they are. Plus, how can they be worried about modules being unbalanced when they don't even EXIST yet if they didn't PLAN on making them overpowered compared to earlier modules? If you plan modules around a tier system, then of course it happens that way.

The whole game design idea of Dreadnought is essentially, this would be cool, lets get it into the game, and design the game around it. Not necessarily, this would be balanced, put it into it.

There are other ways to balance things, beyond a tier system. For example, I was thinking about ways to balance the corvette, and one of the ideas I had was a soft-lock system for the aiming reticle. Place your cursor near the target, and it'll soft lock on, making aiming a little easier. Of course, we'd need to find a way to make it so that corvette pilots suddenly find themselves underpowered, but it's a step in the right direction, I think.

The game already has something close to it, once you hold right click the game "nudges" your shots toward the enemy if your leading was somewhat correct.

And plus, let's be real. There will always be pubstomps. Even now, with basic trader stuff, I pubstomp anyone who doesn't know what they're doing. Having separate "tiers" won't make pubstomps any less egregious, since higher-tier players can always go back to tier 1 to take a huge steaming dump on new players. It's a non-issue.

Yes, but as I said, in high skill play the Corvette is underpowered and thus will get buffed! Expect the Tier 5 Corvettes to have more HP and more DMG with probably less mobility.


Recruit Engineer


Posté: //
20 Août 2016 16:22



Mako109#2699 posted (#post-42823)

@Jawayne

I feel like this is the wrong way of going about things. Rather than going "well, we can't balance anything, so let's split everything into tiers separating the community," they should double-down on trying to balance things as they are. Plus, how can they be worried about modules being unbalanced when they don't even EXIST yet if they didn't PLAN on making them overpowered compared to earlier modules? If you plan modules around a tier system, then of course it happens that way.

There are other ways to balance things, beyond a tier system. For example, I was thinking about ways to balance the corvette, and one of the ideas I had was a soft-lock system for the aiming reticle. Place your cursor near the target, and it'll soft lock on, making aiming a little easier. Of course, we'd need to find a way to make it so that corvette pilots suddenly find themselves underpowered, but it's a step in the right direction, I think.

And plus, let's be real. There will always be pubstomps. Even now, with basic trader stuff, I pubstomp anyone who doesn't know what they're doing. Having separate "tiers" won't make pubstomps any less egregious, since higher-tier players can always go back to tier 1 to take a huge steaming dump on new players. It's a non-issue.

-p-

The softlock system already exists. Hold rightclick on ships (with weapons selected) intended for anti-corvette, and they get aim assist as long as you hold on the corvette itself.

I will note that they screwed up the coding on this (at least for the athos main guns) against corvettes.. making them extremely hard to hit again.


Posté: //
20 Août 2016 18:04



Jawayne#8001 posted (#post-42843)
The whole game design idea of Dreadnought is essentially, this would be cool, lets get it into the game, and design the game around it. Not necessarily, this would be balanced, put it into it.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here, but if you're saying that greybox just tossed things in just because "coolness," I highly disagree. GDDs exist, and thought is placed into things.

The game already has something close to it, once you hold right click the game "nudges" your shots toward the enemy if your leading was somewhat correct.

I have never experienced this outside of beam weapons, which have a form of autolock. Could you find a video of this happening?

Yes, but as I said, in high skill play the Corvette is underpowered and thus will get buffed! Expect the Tier 5 Corvettes to have more HP and more DMG with probably less mobility.

But this is utterly useless. If tier 1 corvettes are useless in high-skill play, they'll be equally useless at tier 5, because guess what: it'll be fighting tier 5 ships, which all gained similar buffs. It changes nothing.

And even then, I disagree about corvettes being underpowered. They have their niche of fast skirmishing play and picking off weak targets, while getting punished for getting too close or taking too much fire. If they HAD to be buffed, I'd create a module that let's them break tractor beam locks and become invulnerable to them for a short time. That'd do them an amazing favor.

@Jeslis

See what I said in regards to that to Jawayne. Save for beam weapons, even with non-athos weapons, I haven't seen any. If it does exist, its coding is super busted.


Needs more Admiral Beard.

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